[geladen]

Of course, believe what you want. But, it's your opinion vs a researched book. I think your thinking is quite reasonable, but sometimes what really happened can a surprise.

There are apparently a lot of documents, mostly financial records, still existing from the period. Another author, Jan Šmid, used them to recently write about the vz.24 rifle and bayonet production for the Czechoslovak, Romanian, and German armies. There were three Romanian contracts! In a matter of course, he mentioned some, but not all, other foreign contracts. Francev wrote about exports of all Czech weapons, handguns to tanks and artillery. I'm hoping to get into translating the chapter on post-WW2 production and exports soon.

What really happened could be a surprise that might go either way.

If you can read Czech, you are way ahead of me! What was the third Romanian contract? Was the AR through YR bunch split into two contracts?

 

[vintovka]

Just to add to subject. In 2004 We purchased large lot on essentially brand new 8mm vz-24 barrels. All had bright brand new bores with sharp rifling and complete with both original sights. The exporter in europe reportedly stated these came from new rifles due to a "contract change" We sold out long ago and regret not keeping a few for projects.

 

[Stan61]

Just to add to subject. In 2004 We purchased large lot on essentially brand new 8mm vz-24 barrels. All had bright brand new bores with sharp rifling and complete with both original sights. The exporter in europe reportedly stated these came from new rifles due to a "contract change" We sold out long ago and regret not keeping a few for projects.

Interesting. One of the old theories out there with the JC model was that they were originally ordered in 7.92mm, but got new 7mm barrels before being shipped to Brazil. One would assume that the 7.92 barrels would have been a lightweight profile type, keeping with the JC pattern? Hard to say what the truth is with the more recent "South China" cover story info in this thread!

 

[vintovka]

The barrels were standard size and we were shocked at how new they were. Each had very light removal marks that could be easily removed with oil and cloth. We bought them as bores described as new but did not expect near 100% in and out with as new sights and were stupid cheap shipped. The barrels may have been replaced with the 7mm "JC" barrels but no clue here.

 

[ryg]

What really happened could be a surprise that might go either way.

If you can read Czech, you are way ahead of me! What was the third Romanian contract? Was the AR through YR bunch split into two contracts?

The 2nd Romanian contract included series AR - HR, 8 series of 25,000 each for a total of 200,000. The third was series OR, PR, RR, SR, TR, UR, XR, & YR, also 8 series of 25,000 each totaling 200.000. The Romanians picked the letters; no explanation known why some letters were skipped.

As for the vz.24JC mystery, I have checked into the older sources. Ottakar Franek's book does not sound well for your theory. He also mentions that the rifles were intended for the Brazilian plot from the beginning. He writes of the cover as just "China". The Brazilians paid an advance on the guns; so some were very likely shipped in time for the fighting in the revolution. He says the origin of the weapons was an open secret in Brazil. One rebel is quoted to the effect that ZB shouldn't worry about being paid because once they win, the Brazilian government will pay. This book is focused on the management and rarely gives specific models and characteristics of weapons involved. There was a big flap when the arrangement with the Brazilian rebels was accidentally discovered, and Franek wrote about 2 pages covering it. The flap is probably because many officials normally in the know were not informed due to secrecy. There was an investigation. In the end, incriminating documents disappeared, everybody denied sending weapons to Brazil, and the military warehouse installation denied taking anything out for export. In the mean time, ZB was busy producing 15,000 vz.24's to replace something from the warehouse. Not just ZB but Skoda cannons, gas masks, and 9 million rounds of ammo were involved. The investigation ruled there was no Brazilian deal, but the matter had to be strictly kept from the public. A classic cover-up?

Miroslav Šada only wrote 2 sentences about these rifles, which say that Brazil received rifles with intended origin "South China" (his quotes) which were 7mm caliber, with curved bolt, lighter stock and thinner barrel. This could very well be the origin of the theory that somebody in south China originally ordered them.

No, I don't really read Czech. I depend on the translation app. I can sing Czech hymns, say a few phrases.

 

[Stan61]

The 2nd contract included series AR - HR, 8 series of 25,000 each for a total of 200,000. The third was series OR, PR, RR, SR, TR, UR, XR, & YR, also 8 series of 25,000 each totaling 200.000. The Romanians picked the letters; no explanation known why some letters were skipped.

As for the vz.24JC mystery, I have checked into the older sources. Ottakar Franek's book does not sound well for your theory. He also mentions that the rifles were intended for the Brazilian plot from the beginning. He writes of the cover as just "China". The Brazilians paid an advance on the guns; so some were very likely shipped in time for the fighting in the revolution. He says the origin of the weapons was an open secret in Brazil. One rebel is quoted to the effect that ZB shouldn't worry about being paid because once they win, the Brazilian government will pay. This book is focused on the management and rarely gives specific models and characteristics of weapons involved. There was a big flap when the arrangement with the Brazilian rebels was accidentally discovered, and Franek wrote about 2 pages covering it. The flap is probably because many officials normally in the know were not informed due to secrecy. There was an investigation. In the end, incriminating documents disappeared, everybody denied sending weapons to Brazil, and the military warehouse installation denied taking anything out for export. In the mean time, ZB was busy producing 15,000 vz.24's to replace something from the warehouse. Not just ZB but Skoda cannons, gas masks, and 9 million rounds of ammo were involved. The investigation ruled there was no Brazilian deal, but the matter had to be strictly kept from the public. A classic cover-up?

Miroslav Šada only wrote 2 sentences about these rifles, which say that Brazil received rifles with intended origin "South China" (his quotes) which were 7mm caliber, with curved bolt, lighter stock and thinner barrel. This could very well be the origin of the theory that somebody in south China originally ordered them.

No, I don't really read Czech. I depend on the translation app. I can sing Czech hymns, say a few phrases.

Thanks ryg! A very interesting thread. Sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction!

 

[iskra]

I hope all this isn't the basis for some sort of timed test..! Least not without liter of Vodka and couple of six packs!
I don't pretend to wrap my head around all this!

Maybe just take a moment to tell me how my Czech Brno Brazilian Model 8/34 rifle fits in! I had no idea so much going on with Brno contracts! (Eighties era purchase x2 consec SN & each all matching @ $69. Pix as direct from a Gun Shop barrel of maybe dozen complete w/grunge attached!)
Thanks for any info & Best!
John

 

[geladen]

No mystery here - ZB sold 100,500 M1908/34 to Brazil in 1937. See Mauser Military Rifles of the World, Fifth Edition by Ball page 122.