Looks to be a VZ24JC. A slightly lighter weight version originally made by BRNO for a Chinese client. After some were delivered the client defaulted on the payments. The remainder were sold to Brazil and used for many years before hitting the surplus market. Should be in 7mm Mauser. Most of the recent imports of these are in pretty poor condition. This one looks to be pretty nice. Would have to check the books, but think these were built in the early 1930's.

 

Thanks for the info! Follow up questions: If it's originally made for a Chinese client, would that be the nationalist government? What caliber would be the ones that being delivered to the Chinese client, 8mm Mauser or 7mm Mauser? 8mm Mauser was the main rifle caliber in China then. But it would be a much of a headache to rechamber the remaining rifles to 7mm Mauser to sell to Brazil. Maybe it's started with 7mm Mauser to sell to the Chinese to begin with? Anyway, it gets interesting to find more about this rifle. Thanks!

 

The references I've read simply refer to "The South China Government" as the original client. That is what the JC in the designation was for (South China). Don't know for certain if it was the Nationalists or perhaps some warlord in the south. I have not seen anything written on these regarding why 7mm. The thinking may have been less recoil with the 7mm being better in a slightly lighter rifle than the standard VZ24? China did have an array of foreign purchased rifles in various calibers, including some 1895 Mausers in 7mm, but later did seem to focus on 7.92mm.

 

Thanks for the info. You're right. China did use different caliber rifles back then, including 7mm. My brain must not functioning when I ask the questions. I checked Robert Ball's Mauser Military Rifles of the World tonight, the Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia sections. The Brazil section mentioned the characteristics of the gun that matches with the gun in this thread. The production table in Czechoslovakia section mentioned South Chinese Government as the original buyer but failed to make payment. However, the production table as well as China section indicated that China received standard VZ24 with 1937 year stamp and P series. Didn't mention turned down bolt variant with manufacturer marking on the receiver ring and only VZ24 on side rail. This makes me wonder if the Chinese ever received any shipment of this turned down bolt version of VZ24.

 

At one time, Brno Zbrojovka distinguished exports to "JC" (Jižní Čína = South China) and "SC" (Severní Čína = North China) when there were two governments claiming to represent China: One in Nanjing (southern government - Nationalists) and one in Beijing (northern government - Beiyang). That would have been during the War Lord era. After a while, when the country was united, they showed only "C" to tag exports to China. (Later on, they started using special codes for countries, but that is another story.) So, your rifle was probably ordered before re-unification. By whom? We can only guess since the numerous war lords were acting almost as if they were independent countries.

The Fengtian Army contracted for standard vz. 24's in 1928-30.

 

Thanks for the info. Is there any info on serial number cutoff on a certain serial number and lower sold to China and higher that serial number sold to Brazil, or any other distinguishable characters on the rifle to tell one from another? Thanks!

 

I have not seen any documentation of any numbers of the Vz24JC being delivered to China. There is speculation that a very small number were delivered before the payments defaulted. I seem to recall a thread from our late member John Wall regarding those, but can't find it in the search feature. None of the rifles to China have ever surfaced to my knowledge. The Chinese did later get the regular version Vz24 in 7.92mm. In any case, about 15,000 JC rifles were delivered to Brazil, which are the ones seen here in the US today.

 

What is odd about the Chinese contract for this rifle is that it has special features - turned down bolt and relief on the stock, special features presumably requiring additional fees. The Chinese are usually too practical to be bothered with such things. They didn't even ask to have a national crest placed on the numerous contracts to the many foreign manufacturers. The exception being the Kar98k's with the small GMD suns, but they were probably done by the Germans to keep them separate from their own production rifles.

 

Agree! Another speculation on these was if they were originally ordered in 7mm or 7.92mm then later re-barreled to the 7mm round for sale to Brazil. The 7mm rifles seem uncommon in China, but not unheard of.

 

Thanks ryg for the additional info!

 

I came across another reference (Československé zbraně ve světě - V míru i za války by Vladimír Francev) which has what is probably the correct story:

In December 1929, representatives of Getúlio Vargas, governor of the Brazilian state of Rio Grande do Sul, running for president of his country, met with ZB officials in Brno. They contracted for 15,000 vz.24 rifles, as well as 1,000 vz.26 light machine guns and 150 vz.24 heavy machine guns (Schwarzlose M.7 rechambered for 7.92mm Mauser). It was a secret contract done under the cover of "South China". The Brazilians wanted a rush job - to be delivered by April 1930, so ZB borrowed 15,000 unissued vz.24 rifles from the defense ministry to be replaced by new production rifles later, a common practice. In February 1930, ZB went about making new 7mm barrels and other parts to convert the rifles to Brazilian specifications. Then the 1930 Brazilian Revolution happened, probably delaying payments, so shipments were held up. The revolution was successful and Vargas became head of state, so payments were made and shipments made in October 1930. There is a suspicion that some rifles were shipped early and took part in the revolution.

So, there we have the "South China" vz.24JC. Similar surreptitious methods were done to send rifles to Spain to avoid the arms embargo during the Spanish Civil War.

 

That is a nice story but it doesn't hold water. Not only was the VZ24JC barrel different (thinner and 7X57) from a Czechoslovak Army VZ24 barrel, but the stock (thinner overall but cut thicker for the thinner barrel) and bolt (bent handle) were also different. The receiver of a Czechoslovak Army VZ24 is different from a "South China" VZ24JC in regard to the serial number pattern and the lack of an E(lion)29 acceptance marking. So if you don't use the barrel, stock, bolt, or receiver of a VZ24 rifle to make a VZ24JC rifle, what would be the point of starting with rifles 'borrowed' from the Czechoslovak Army?

The VZ24JC concept was a redesigned model intended to be a lightweight version of the VZ24. Most major parts were not interchangeable between the two designs.

The idea of the lightweight VZ24 was continued with the VZ32 rifle sold to Peru in 1934 and to Uruguay in 1937. The VZ32 stock proved to be fragile because it was too thin; the final (successful) version was the VZ12/33 sold to El Salvador in 1937 and sold in very large quantity to Brazil as the M1908/34 in 1937. The only difference between the VZ12/33 and the M1908/34 is the length of the bayonet lug (shorter on the M1908/34 and standard length on the VZ12/33).

The idea of the VZ24JC being sold to Brazilian rebels is generally accepted. The idea of using 'South China' as a cover story sounds possible, lacking other evidence. It was common for ZB to 'borrow' unissued (but acceptance marked and serial number marked) rifles from the Czechoslovak Army to make a quick sale and this might have been considered for the Brazilian rebel rifles - but it was not done.

It may have not been done because ZB already had VZ24JC rifles on hand from an unpaid Chinese contract.

Added: It could be that the "South China" label was used as cover for the Brazilian contract (including VZ24JC, VZ26, and Schwarzlose M.7) after the original South China contract fell through for nonpayment.

The subject rifle is a very nice example, lacking the later Brazilian markings added to most of the rifles (PM [Policia Militar] prefix serial number, etc.)

 

That is a nice story but it doesn't hold water. Not only was the VZ24JC barrel different (thinner and 7X57) from a Czechoslovak Army VZ24 barrel, but the stock (thinner overall but cut thicker for the thinner barrel) and bolt (bent handle) were also different. The receiver of a Czechoslovak Army VZ24 is different from a "South China" VZ24JC in regard to the serial number pattern and the lack of an E(lion)29 acceptance marking. So if you don't use the barrel, stock, bolt, or receiver of a VZ24 rifle to make a VZ24JC rifle, what would be the point of starting with rifles 'borrowed' from the Czechoslovak Army?

The VZ24JC concept was a redesigned model intended to be a lightweight version of the VZ24. Most major parts were not interchangeable between the two designs.

The idea of the lightweight VZ24 was continued with the VZ32 rifle sold to Peru in 1934 and to Uruguay in 1937. The VZ32 stock proved to be fragile because it was too thin; the final (successful) version was the VZ12/33 sold to El Salvador in 1937 and sold in very large quantity to Brazil as the M1908/34 in 1937. The only difference between the VZ12/33 and the M1908/34 is the length of the bayonet lug (shorter on the M1908/34 and standard length on the VZ12/33).

The idea of the VZ24JC being sold to Brazilian rebels is generally accepted. The idea of using 'South China' as a cover story sounds possible, lacking other evidence. It was common for ZB to 'borrow' unissued (but acceptance marked and serial number marked) rifles from the Czechoslovak Army to make a quick sale and this might have been considered for the Brazilian rebel rifles - but it was not done.

It may have not been done because ZB already had VZ24JC rifles on hand from an unpaid Chinese contract.

I thought that would ruffle some feathers, the Francev report conflicting from what has been the accepted story. First, I should point out that Francev's book is very recent (publ 2015) compared to Franek (1969-70) or Sada (1971) - probably the main sources of previous knowledge - and we should expect new findings. Francev certainly did find many new details. I don't think he made them up.

The point of using Czech army stores (which the ZB company called "borrowing") was the time crunch. The Vargas people signed the contract in December 1929 with the delivery deadline of April, 1930. ZB started making the new parts in February 1930, and the stored rifles were officially released to ZB in March 1930. They evidently thought this would save time to meet the deadline. In the meantime, the Brazilian elections were held in March 1930 where Vargas technically lost but voting irregularities lead to the Brazilian Revolution of 1930. They probably had other things to worry about than paying ZB. When the smoke cleared, Vargas was in charge and due payments were made; then ZB shipped the rifles and machine guns.

When a rifle receives a new barrel and bolt, it needs to be newly proofed. The Czech army acceptance marking you refer to meant more than just that the rifle went into army inventory. It meant it passed some exacting quality checks required by the Czech army. They would not want this army quality mark on a rifle that received a new barrel,etc unless it went through the testing again. Since the rifle is not going back into the Czech army, there would be no new testing of this kind and no new army acceptance stamp. So, the acceptance stamp is removed, and might as well place a new serial number specific to the contract.

The Czech army wanted their acceptance marks removed or defaced when a rifle from army stores was exported. However, that was sometimes not practicable as with the huge 300,000 rifle first contract order from Romania that had to be done expeditiously.

The Chinese were most interested in buying as many weapons as possible for the money. In the 1920's, they searched far and wide for cheap used rifles (esp. Gew98's and Gew88's) in quantity. They would buy the more expensive new weapons if they could not find enough used guns. They would certainly not be interested in paying extra for curved bolts and relieved stocks - and, you say, special thin barrels.

The Brazilians, on the other hand, did not shrink from the extra cost of special features and special models. If the Vz.24JC is a special (therefore more expensive) "lightweight" version, that would be a reason the Chinese would not be interested, but the Brazilians might be.

PS: When the "sneaky" deal with the Brazilians became known, there was fear of scandal and some ZB officials were punished. They got off light because the Foreign Minister, Edvard Beneš, knew about it and came to their defense.

 

Wow, what a story. Thanks all for the additional info.

 

In my view, it would be easier, faster, and cheaper to make the 15,000 VZ24JC rifles from scratch than it would be to take the receiver, bolt & magazine innards, and trigger guard from Czechoslovak Army VZ24 rifles, then add a new stock, a new bolt body, a new barrel, and new sights. Then of course, later, they would still need to make 15,000 new VZ24 rifles for the Czechoslovak Army at no charge.

I do not know if the 15,000 VZ24JC rifles were made before the Brazilian contract came along or not - but I suspect they were made earlier for some other buyer (or else made earlier as a new run of a lightweight model without a contract).

I can believe much more easily that Francev writing 80+ years after the event got some of his facts wrong.

You say that Francev wrote that the stored VZ24 rifles were officially released to ZB in March 1930 and the delivery deadline was April 1930. What looks wrong with that timing, to transport the rifles back to the factory, disassemble 15,000 rifles, reassemble 15,000 rifles with new barrels and stocks, package the rifles, and then ship the rifles from some time in March to the end of April? That is assuming that all of the new design parts were properly made between some time in February and some time in March.

There are far too many potential problems inherent in that schedule. They would have been far better off to begin manufacture of the VZ24JC rifles (if they were not already made) as soon as possible after December 1929. The staff at ZB was not stupid.

I suppose we will need to agree to disagree. When a time machine comes along we can determine which of us is more correct.

 

Of course, believe what you want. But, it's your opinion vs a researched book. I think your thinking is quite reasonable, but sometimes what really happened can a surprise.

There are apparently a lot of documents, mostly financial records, still existing from the period. Another author, Jan Šmid, used them to recently write about the vz.24 rifle and bayonet production for the Czechoslovak, Romanian, and German armies. There were three Romanian contracts! In a matter of course, he mentioned some, but not all, other foreign contracts. Francev wrote about exports of all Czech weapons, handguns to tanks and artillery. I'm hoping to get into translating the chapter on post-WW2 production and exports soon.

 

Just to add to subject. In 2004 We purchased large lot on essentially brand new 8mm vz-24 barrels. All had bright brand new bores with sharp rifling and complete with both original sights. The exporter in europe reportedly stated these came from new rifles due to a "contract change" We sold out long ago and regret not keeping a few for projects.

 

Interesting. One of the old theories out there with the JC model was that they were originally ordered in 7.92mm, but got new 7mm barrels before being shipped to Brazil. One would assume that the 7.92 barrels would have been a lightweight profile type, keeping with the JC pattern? Hard to say what the truth is with the more recent "South China" cover story info in this thread!

 

The barrels were standard size and we were shocked at how new they were. Each had very light removal marks that could be easily removed with oil and cloth. We bought them as bores described as new but did not expect near 100% in and out with as new sights and were stupid cheap shipped. The barrels may have been replaced with the 7mm "JC" barrels but no clue here.

 

I hope all this isn't the basis for some sort of timed test..! Least not without liter of Vodka and couple of six packs!
I don't pretend to wrap my head around all this!

Maybe just take a moment to tell me how my Czech Brno Brazilian Model 8/34 rifle fits in! I had no idea so much going on with Brno contracts! (Eighties era purchase x2 consec SN & each all matching @ $69. Pix as direct from a Gun Shop barrel of maybe dozen complete w/grunge attached!)
Thanks for any info & Best!
John

 

No mystery here - ZB sold 100,500 M1908/34 to Brazil in 1937. See Mauser Military Rifles of the World, Fifth Edition by Ball page 122.