Thank you for the heads up. Do you mind if I ask what color the grease is? - - - Dan

 

Absent a reliable and economical source of Waffenfett in the USA, I use this for lubricating my Swiss straight-pull rifles:
https://www.fluoramics.com/store/lightning-grease-125-grams.html?category_id=18

It is low viscosity, does not thin out and run as the rifle heats up, and it is clear colored.
For bore cleaning, I favor Ballistol. Since the Swiss rifles have lapped barrels, if you pull Ballistol patches at the range while the barrel is still warm, you are done after four patches.

 

Thanks. If you want a smaller amount:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01BJ3HE0K/ref=sspa_mw_detail_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Even looks like Automatfett

 

skygeek is cheaper in the 14 oz tube...and 9 bucks for 1/2 oz...are you crazy ??

 

I'm a bit skeptical about using anything that contains MoS - molybdenum disulfide - as a bore cleaner. 10+ years ago molybdenum-coated bullets were all the rage; now hardly any mention of them. Apparently, the ballistic advantages afforded by these bullets was outweighed by the problems cleaning bores after using them, and the potential for serious bore corrosion.

I presume that if the Swiss army is using Auotmattenfett for bore cleaning, they have compounded it to be safe for bores.

 

Leon: Hard Moly bullets rubbed off on bores...a tuff to get out building up problem.
brother in law used them in 6x55’s for awhile....till accuracy became erratic.

Note Molybdenum should not be put in chambers ..
bores...rifles more pistols...in my opinion may creep back into bore?

it will circumnavigated the good friction needed for brass to grip chamber walls..during ignition.
Causing much more back thrust pressure agains bolt face...lugs.

I’ve never used it for rust preventing...?

Used it for Ever moving part...
I’ve had the most extreme good luck..
Lighting trigger pulls, hammers, fireing pin..etc. moving parts.

I have military grade molybdenum 1970’s marked... blue, black, grayish color.. goo
three heavy cans, just two inches shorter than a soup can...
( use one can from 2000 till I gave it to a friend...with still almost a whole can less than three inches used.)
Used it on a 22 mag.AMT Auto slide rails ...
started slamming the slide...noticeable...?
(had a time getting it all, cleaning it off back to normal..)

I’m going to look into getting a tube of aero shield ...this week end..for sure..
Want to use a little on this 98 Silverado I’m rebuilding...and restoring..and rest stashed..thanks<>< Dan

 

I’d never use 14oz in a lifetime and yes, I can sweat 9 bucks...

 

add 5 dollars
and TWENTY SEVEN of your closest friends can have a 1/2 oz also.

 

The swiss grease has moly in it as well.

The issue with the moly coated bullets is true, I had a cut Krieger chrome-moly barrel that was well maintained but ended up with a bore that looked like the surface of the moon when observed with a 40X glass. But a Remington 7.62 target barrel used with Moly grease on the bullet never showed that issue, despite ~900 rounds of Moly greased bullets. Also a chrome moly barrel, but I am not sure of the alloy difference between the Remington factory barrel and the Krieger.

The best theory I have read is the disassociation of MoS into MO and Free S occurs under high pressure and temp, which can be the case with hot loads. Free sulfur will be an issue and most especially with some alloys of stainless. If so using the grease, which is removed from the bore and chamber prior to firing should not have that issue.

Please note the web site: It is a swiss supplier to gun clubs. The tube of Areoshell 64 is what the clubs use or the regular Automatfett. Ever seen a bad Swiss bore?


In the case of the swiss they removed the grease before firing.

 

sorry to inform you but moly coated bullets are just fine.
lapua or norma did a massive test on moly bores published results.
they still sell moly bullets
poor cleaning procedures may be an issue, moly requires its own cleaning process.
20 years of moly use, my bbls are fine.
i now perfer HBN..cleaner process.

 

Kubota uses a moly grease on all the zerk grease points on my kubota L3800 which is no longer made since they went to tier4. Even the splines on the power take off at the back end, and bush hog gear box end get this grease. 20 something years back we had new electric fuel oil transfer pumps installed and we decided to use moly grease on the ball bearings. We had intermittent usage in sub zero weather, ice, snow, and temps close to 105 degrees. The hour meter was at 8000 hours or a little less than 4 years. One pump at a time was taken out of service and sent to the companies repair facility. Supervisor called up and asked what grease we were using so gave him the name off the tube of grease. Said that with so many hours they expected much more wear. They replaced the bearings as a matter of course and as long as I worked there that moly grease was used for those pumps. I would expect though that being a grease that was used in aircraft had more stringent tests done prior to being approved for aircraft usage. Only thing I didn't like was that if you got it on your working clothing the stains really never came out. And bench rest shooters I knew back then did use moly coatings on their bullets. But dropped it after all the reports started coming in of barrel corrosion. Frank

 

Excellent thread!!! I have stacks of those little Automatenfett cans hoarded up. I use the grease in them but treat it as if it were holy water touched by Jesus himself; to be used as efficiently as humanly possible and only on certain firearms. Now, I can just let the original stuff sit for posterity and slather the AeroGrease on everything like it's plain ol' bath water!! This is great!! Thank you for the link sir!!!

 

A 14oz tube of Lubriplate 930 with 15% Moly Paste is chemically a facsimile of Automattenfett. Mix together in a canning jar.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Armoury and the well instructed Swiss soldier used a product called Waffenfett, a vegetable based lubricant and later, Automattenfett. A close and reasonable approximation in the US is Lubriplate 930. The barrel is swabbed with the 930 mix, running a patch back and forth followed by a dry patch. At the end of the shooting session while the barrel is still hot or warm, the lubriplate is worked back into the barrel and left that way until the next shooting session when a dry patch is run back through removing the excess lubriplate. That's it. If carbon in the throat and chamber become an issue from firing reloads, use a good carbon remover such as Montana Extreme, but leave the bore alone. It is a fact that excessive bore cleaning with brushes can and will shorten your barrel life.

If, by shooting reloaded cartridges utilizing copper jacketed projectiles, your bore shows copper fouling, use a product such as WipeOut to remove it. This kind of a product fulfills it's task without continual scrubbing of the bore.

This may sound like an overly simple approach, and the typical US shooter is usually a ready recipient of industry marketing efforts and barrel maintenance, but use this logic. My 80+ year old rifle came to me with a truly amazing bore. Why would I not then follow the maintenance practices of the Armoury and Soldier that delivered it to me in this condition?"

 

Okay...really...won't a good Made in USA high temp bearing grease suffice...but yeah, I get it that you choose to go this far over the ridge line , its a Swiss thing.

Choice is a wonderful thing.

 

LOL. Yes, it's a Swiss thing! Swiss grease for Swisstols (and rifles) helps preserve their Swisstory! It'd be like putting a Timex bracelet on you're Rolex. It'll work but it's absolutely barbaric!!

 

Some of the US bearing greases you can get, thought they are lithium based, have graphite in them, that is an issue as the graphite can cause corrosion on aluminum parts. You certainly would not want to use them on a SIG 220 or 226 with a steel side and aluminum frame.


I went down this rabbit whole as I have found the automatfett to work quite well on some of my old British 7.62 target rifles from the 1969 to 1995 era when used with German DM 41 ball ammunition. The DM 41 cartridge used a cupronickel coated steel jacket bullet. The Automatfett works quite well, the cleaning required was …....well very little, basically one a season or every 300 to 400 rounds, in between simply coating the bore with grease would seemingly keep the carbon coating down.

Also if you push out the grease with a tight patch, then push a Hoppies # 9 patch, same with the chamber, then follow with 2 dry patches, let it dry the night before, the first shot out of the bore will be in group.

Same is true with the K31 rifle out to 300 M


Oh, and Milprileb….you have a point. But the very precision and delineated methods of the Swiss way of doing things is part of the appeal.

When you got to shoot a Swiss course of fire you have two choices in cartridges, GP11 or GP90. You do not have to worry about a bunch of reloading issues, as that is what you shoot. And it is very good ammunition, you can shoot a near clean score on the A10 target @ 300 M with its 10-cm 10 ring with either load out of a PE90 or a K31/G11 (with target sights). With the latter rifle designs 86 and 117 years old using a cartridge load that is 117 years old.....

If you are shooting an ordnance K31 you have two choices in slings: the K11/K31 carbine sling or a Mueller web type sling. You have to master the hasty sling in the Swiss method to make good groups that coincide with the center of the A10. Once you understand the method, you realize the myriad of US/Brit pattern loop slings are not required to shoot a near clean on a A10 target. In fact the very act of mastering the hasty sling assures that you have a good consistent pressure points on the rifle.

So it goes with doing things the swiss method. It simply works and works very well, reinventing the wheel is not necessary. So simply do it the Swiss way and you know it will work precisely.

 

Diogenes sass in seinem Fass und sprach... "Ja ja. dass kommt von dass"


P

 

A thread like this is testimony to the enthusiasm of the Swiss rifle shooters' community. We care that much!
But I don't care if my cleaning protocol is not according to the Swiss Army regulations. Hey, if I could walk into the local "Ganderli" and buy Waffenfett, I would. But the most I can get out of the "Ganderli" is overpriced Ballistol. But Ballistol works as a bore cleaner, and its regular use keeps copper fouling under control, in equilibrium, so you don't need to waste rounds restabilizing the bore with "fouling shots" at the next range session. And I also endorse PatchOut if you really have a fouling problem.

Action lubrication: I've already mentioned Tufoil (Fluoramics) Lightning Grease. For my M1 Garand, I use their thicker Spindle Grease.

 

I'm so craynal (crazy anal retentive) I just finished taking pre-cleaning pictures of a recently imported P75 so that I would have a record of where Swiss dude greased it.

 

How about that, we have cases of Aeroshell 33 MS at work. There is a tube of non-Moly Sulfide around too, but we don't use that one as much.

 

AR15AR10

sorry to tell you but reality is, in certain lots of Moly coated bullets, the result is quite horrid and real. That you have not seen it does not mean it is not real, just like the many folks who report No 5 rifles have not zero issues based on range experience. In the case of Moly risks, I was there, I saw it, I bore scoped it, it was my rifle barrel.

Barrel that was damaged in my possession was a Krieger chrome moly tube, on the gun I made High Master with in 1999. It was correctly maintained using Kriol as the Precision Shooter hucksters delineated. The pitting was real, but very fine. It occurred when the rifle was stored in a low humidity environment between seasons. No other rifles in that particular location had any corrosion, nor was there any sign of such on any other portion of the arms. Only free sulfur in the bore that was and had been cleaned could have done that.

Now it may have been MOS coating lot related, as another barrel of identical steel composition did not suffer that issue. Perhaps some of the moly disassociated under heat an pressure. I really do not know. But I have known a few rifle competitors from the period late 1990s to early 2000s who had similar issues at the time, the effect seemingly worse with stainless tubes. On of them was a bench rest shooter of great care.

That said I did not see the same result with Moly grease bullets, if 7.62 tubes form the 1997~1998 time frame.

AR15AR10 man, at times you do not know it all, and your assumption that you do is unbecoming.

 

so i was correct.
the WRONG cleaning process was used, and you suffered the consequences.
a moly bore is not cleaned with A BRUSH nor with kroil.
what is required is a serious chemical carbon cleaning with patches only.
never disturb the moly layer...
which is why you probably has an issue...not moly's fault, cleaning process wrong.

 

Brother in law had a new 6x55..very accurate...can’t remem rifle...may be a kimber conversion?
he being progressive..Changed to moly bullets..he kept,reading about...!

Ranging often ..working up loads for coming hunting season.
started having excess build ups in different spots..
not coming out with regular cleaning,
Building up in places from above chamber out to crown in spots,( blue steel barrel)..
Lose of accuracy and constant repattering zero a little here back to there?
Even bought new scope at first...till he in great light saw the blueish build ups..
No pitting noticed?
Sold rifle disgusted <>< Dan

 

I do not recall, during the heyday of moly-coated bullets, that special cleaning instructions and procedures were provided by the makers or users of these bullets.

The cause of bore corrosion by potassium chlorate in primers was not determined definitively until many years after their introduction. If you pulled enough patches, the potassium chloride salts were mechanically removed, but nobody knew at the time that it was the hydrophilic property of KaCl that was ruining barrels. So it was hit or miss if a barrel would survive until the "solution" to the corrosive primer problem was determined: water.

 

Neither do I ?

 

This is a very interesting but very frustrating topic. After the first couple of posts I spent more than an hour reading the dozens of threads and hundreds of posts that a quick Google search provided.

What I learned is that moly coated bores are very beneficial except when they are horribly destructive.

For practically every (apparently) well reasoned and articulated opinion in favor of molybdenum disulfide there was an equally cogent argument that virtually nothing is worse for a barrel.

Like most owners of old Swiss rifles I like the idea of using the original Swiss grease, or its domestically available equivalent. Not because of any theoretical advantage over the multitude of modern and common cleaning products but because of the romantic, sentimental enjoyment of reveling in the traditional practices of the people who made and used these beautiful old rifles.

Although I can’t begin to explain the divergence of opinion, it seems that logically the following must be true:

If there has never been a problem using the moly based Automattenfett in the bores of Swiss rifles and it is universally considered ideally suited for such cleaning duties, and

Automattenfett is difficult and costly to obtain, and

If AeroShell 64 is the equivalent of Automattenfett, and

AeroShell 64 is inexpensive and readily available, then

Using AeroShell 64 to clean and preserve the bores of Swiss rifles, and rifles in general, is the right, proper, and correct course of action.

This isn’t rocket science and I am having trouble understanding why the controversy exists. If I am mistaken I hope that someone will show the weakness of the obvious conclusion that I just stated.

As this thread winds down can we come to a consensus?

 

Below is an extract from the English translation of the Swiss Army manual for the K31.

Note: the soldier's cleaning kit has a pull cord and some sort of wire mesh. So the cleaning action is essentially scraping - mechanically - the fouling and grease from the bore. No solvent is used or authorized. Given that the Swiss rifles have lapped bores and never were exposed to corrosive primers, this cleaning method evidently was reliable and proven.

2. Cleaning

26 The degree of rifle cleaning will depend on how dirty the weapon is. When the weather is dry it
is sufficient to dry then grease the exterior of the weapon and the bolt. After shooting with ball or
blank ammunition or with propulsive cartridges, a more thorough cleaning is required, also if the
weapon is soiled or wet.

If it is not possible to clean the weapon immediately after firing, the bore of the barrel should at
least be greased while it is still warm.

Only material provided in the accessory pouch and the weapon grease delivered to the troop
should be used for cleaning. Cleaning rods should be used only to grease and degrease the
barrels, they should not be used for cleaning.

Cleaning materials should be kept in good condition. The cleaning cord should be equipped with
a wire mesh that is not worn out. To wash the cleaning cord use hot water no hotter than 30° C;
the wire mesh should be removed beforehand. The wire mesh should only be placed on the cord
and the cord rolled only after the cord is dry.

------

29 Barrel cleaning is performed by means of a cleaning cord, after having removed the bolt and the
magazine. For Mq. 31 the locking sleeve should be re-inserted in place to ensure that the ejector
does not snag the cleaning cord. The cleaning cord is inserted through the receiver. The wire
mesh should be well greased and in good enough condition so that the wire will penetrate the
grooves of the rifling; if the wire mesh is too narrow, widen it by inserting a small piece of wood
into the cord. Two men should pull the cleaning cord exactly down the barrel axis; on each
cleaning pass, the wire mesh should pass all the way through the barrel.

After having removed all powder residues in this fashion, wrap a small thin patch around the cord
just ahead of the wire mesh, and clean the barrel again until the patch emerges clean. The barrel
is then inspected. Special attention should de paid to ensure rifling grooves are clean. After
inspection, grease the bore by greasing a thin cotton patch and wrapping it around the cord just
ahead of the wire mesh, then run the cord again through the barrel. The cleaning rod can also be
used to grease the barrel.

 

AR15AR10

The cleaning method I used was that specified by the makers of the moly bullets/coating. On all three barrels that had moly grease or MoS coated bullets used, only one corroded, the one with the highest round count. It was not just Kroil, it was cleaned with a brush. But Kroil was the very specific cleaning fluid to be used back in the 1990s. Also JB was to be used very sparingly in the throat to make sure you did not suffer the issue DK Phillips mentions with the 6.5x55, especially once the throat would start to have radial cracking.

I do not know the exact issue, but given the very fine pitting it is likely a free sulfur corrosion issue, even though the bore was clean when stored. How the MoS disassociated in the bore I know not. Why one tube corroded I know not, but suspect, based on semiconductors doping theory it was sulfur introduced to the interstadial spaces in the steel lattice, which then would allow for slow corrosion even in a low humidity environment. Indeed one of the few corrosion mechanisms of steel in an anaerobic environment is sulfur. Perhaps the higher round count, perhaps a slight difference in the steel used accounted for the one barrel corroding and the other not, I really do not know but can observe that which is. A is A.

When I was an active rifle competitor I spent an inordinate about of time and care in rifle maintenance and that is the only competition barrel I had damaged by corrosion in 30 some years, including some 303 rifles fired with corrosive salts. I just checked a bunce of the rifles and old retired match barrels this last weekend, with a bore scope and they are all still corrosion free, some of them having sat 25 years or more.

Now you may say that I was still cleaning incorrectly, but if the method delineated by the maker of the coating process does not suffice, well what does that say? You assumption that you know the facts when you do not is demonstrated again, perhaps asking more details before making such an assertion would be wise in the future.

I am by no means the only one who had this issue, folks with stainless tubes seem to have had more worse problems. The bench rest guys I knew were pretty much down on the process post 2003~2006 (not exactly sure of date), for corrosion reasons.

 

there is lots of bs on moly on the net
esp after sinclair said it was bad.
sinclair ran into "HARD BLACK DEPOSITS'
and promptly quit selling and called it HAZARDOUS
all because they too used the WRONG cleaning process.
your moly provider had no money in the game, they did not offer to replace your
bbl and sinclair never retracted their errorunious statement.

the hard black deposits were CARBON because they NEVER cleaned for carbon.
the moly coating allows, may actually promote, carbon build up. you have to aggressively
CHEMICALLY clean for carbon when using moly. again no brushes,, patches only

moly is a bbl coating system period you will not leave the coating in place if you use a brush.
moly grease is not a moly plating system.

you keep relying on what you were told, but you had a bbl go bad..i have not
i have been using moly in multiple guns WITH NO ILL EFFECTS in over 20 years.
now who has a bad system you or me ?
keep believing those that ruined your bbl...sounds like a solid plan.

and those that did not pay attention quit moly, but those that paid attention
still use moly. some have moved on to other coatings hbn being one.
there are still coated bullets in br.

i won the 600 yard br national championship with coated bullets in 2015.