[JPS]

Hello Gents,

Here are two photos, one a close up, that show the difference between the original M70/87 Vetterli clearing rod versus the smaller diameter rod that was issued with the M70/87/15. Per stevenjay's comment above, the original rod has a head that is larger in diameter and a new rod with a smaller diameter head had to be manufactured for issue with the 6.5mm barrel of the M70/87/15.

Note that the two shorter rifles in the right side of the right hand photo are NOT actually shorter weapons. In the other photo on the left they can be seen resting on a step down on a lower level.

However it's interesting to note that quite a few M70/87s turn up these days with the later clearing rod. It's impossible to tell when these were replaced in Italy while still in stores or here in the States after import. As nearly impossible as it is to find originals of either rod these days, keep in mind that the later rod would still fit and function properly in the earlier version. Obviously the reverse is not true.

Regarding front-line use during WWI, while never issued specifically to units that were expected to serve in combat with either variation, both the M70/87 and the M70/87/15 were used in combat on an emergency basis after the disaster at Caporetto. There is also evidence to suggest that early in the war some number of Milizia Territoriale Units may have seen combat while armed with M70/87s prior to the availability of the M70/87/15 conversions.


And of course the 400,000 M1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali Infantry rifles chambered for the 10.4x47mmR cartridge that were supplied to Imperial Russia during WWI saw heavy use in combat.

I hope this info helps.

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

[JPS]

Good morning Gents,

One more quick note Gents, for those of you who haven't done so, the M1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali are excellent shooters! I load fire-formed .348 Win brass with light smokeless powder loads per the conversion formula published in Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions. I use hard-cast 300 grain bullets designed for the .44 Mag and get excellent accuracy.

When time permits, I plan to take this rifle deer hunting. Several years ago I used one of my Austro-Hungarian M1867 Werndl Rifles to take full grown Whitetail spike on a lease in Texas. He dropped to the shot at 90 yards. This load pretty much duplicates the ballistics of a hot .44 Mag load when fired out of a revolver with a 7 1/2" barrel, which is more than adequate for deer out to 150 yards.

Based on my experience shooting the M70/87, when you consider it's use in combat, while I would rather carry a M1891 Mannlicher-Carcano, the four-shot Vetterli would not be ineffective in the hands of an experienced rifleman out to 200 yards. When you consider the fact that large numbers of Russian troops were issued M1870 Berdan II rifles and Mle 1874 Gras rifles, both of which are single-shots, I'd take the Vetterli in a heartbeat over either of these options! Here are a few more examples from my Collection. I've been a long-time huge fan of the Vetterli.

I'm still looking for the M1870 Cavalry Carbine and the M1870/87 TS Carbine to complete my Italian Vetterli Collection. I never expect to find an original M1870 Infantry rifle that is still in single-shot configuration! Or your Cavalry Carbine Doc!!!

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

[precision]

Thanks for all the info guys. You all have been a big help. JPS would you be interested in selling me a few shells for the 10.4? I would just love to say I shot this rifle and I don't do any reloading or have any equipment to make ammo. Also JPS that is one impressive Italian collection.


Thanks again Pete

 

[redimacchia]

JPS the majority of italian Vetterli in single shot configuration are from the civilian and Tiro a Segno Nazionale contracts. I have search mine for about 10 years and got it from a old woman, her husband died some time ago, for the crazy price of 250€. The rifle is a Brescia made in 1882, no serial number and prize of a shooting competition in the Tiro a Segno Nazionale di Leno, the plate war rebuilt because the original silver one was lost.

best regards

 

[US1945]

I have a cleaning rod what appears to be a m1870/86 Steyr cleaning rod. It's 82cm (32.3 inches) long. I might can add a photo tomorrow. The plan was to auction it along with some other cleaning rods. I'm open to offers.

Best regards Tommy
Us1945@hotmail.com