I forgot to add the the local gun shop wants $200 for the 1881 1870/87 15 Vetterli Vitali it looks to be in nice shape. Is that a fair price?

 

original ammo is EXPENSIVE... as in, if you find it, (and that's a big IF)
you can make centerfire 41mm Swiss, but this involves work on the rifle
as for the price, not bad, if you have a collector who knows what it is, then yes, it can go for more, but usually they are sold as wall hangers, due to age and lack of ammo.

 

Mosinitis, you're confusing the Italian Vetterli with the Swiss Vetterli. The Italian Vetterli is and always was a center fire rifle. The cases can be easily made from .348 Winchester cases. The Swiss Vetterli is the one that needs to be modified from rim fire to center fire. The rifle in this post is an Italian Vetterli.

 

The cleaning rods for the6.5 is different than the 10.4. It is shorter, and the thread size on the end is smaller.

 

Precision
Forgive my inquisitiveness but I am intrigued by your story. Was your grandfather issued with a mod.1870/87 or a mod.1870/87/15? Are you able to say when and where he served with a Vetterli? I quite understand if this is a question too far!

 

Sarie Marais, I would love to tell you every thing I know about my Grandfather and his Vetterli mod. 1870/87. I have a handkerchief that belonged to my grandfather that shows the break down of the Vetterli 1870/87. It was one of the treasured items he brought with him to America. My father told me when he asked my Grandfather about the handkerchief he told him it was given to him along with the rifle when he joined the military in Italy. Unfortunately my grandfather died about 45 years ago so I can not ask him some of the questions I would love to ask. I have been trying to research any info I can find on his service record but so far have come up empty handed. I do know he was from Serrastretta Italy. Any other questions you may have just let me know

 

Precision
Many thanks for the interesting family information. Most Italian troops were being trained on Carcano mod.1891 by 1896 (except Ascari in the colonies) so it is probably quite special to be able to say in 2014 that your grandfather might have been trained on Vetterli mod.1870/87.

 

IS the 6.5 cleaning rod the same as a Carano long rifle?

 

No. SW

 

Mosinitis, Like I said I am new to collecting these Italian rifles so I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say that. I can say that the 1870/87 15 is not cut down but as far as the 10.4 1870/87 that does not seem to have the correct cleaning rod. when I posted a pic of that rifle on this site a guy told me it looks like the cleaning rod was from a swiss Vetterli I don't have a correct cleaning rod to compare the 2

 

Well on the bright side, you have $100+ dollars in the cleaning rod alone :thumbsup:

 

The 6.5 cleaning rod has a smaller head in order to fit in the 6.5 bore.

 

Sarie Marais,Thank you for that info. My Grandfather was born in 1883 and that makes him only 13 years old in 1896. Do you think that the story that was told to my father could be incorrect? I don't know what Ascari in the colonies is. Do you think he could have been there. I'm not sure how he would have gotten that handkerchief and why it was so important to bring it to America with him.

 

Precision:
I am sure that your family story was based on fact. It seems unlikely however that your grandfather was trained on Mod.1870/87 from the dates you have supplied. There are many possible explanations;
- The Fazzoletto or military instructional handkerchief and mod.1870/87 were used by your great grandfather?
- As DocAV has explained, 'Classe 1883' was called up in 1915 when Carcanos were beginning to be in short supply. Many thousands of Vetterlis held in storage were adapted to 6.5 mm mod.1870/87/15 rifles and issued to Artillery and administrative support troops to help ease the issue of Carcanos to the infantry. Is it possible your grandfather was issued with a mod.1870/87/15? The Vetterli Fazzoletto, although pertinent to 10.35mm Vetterli mod.1870/87s, contained a wealth of useful general military information such as badges of rank and how to adopt various fire positions. Instructions for stripping the Vetterli bolt were also much the same. Maybe he was issued with an old Vetterli Fazzoletto?
- The above scenario is possible even if he was issued with a Carcano. Perhaps he was given an 'old' Fazzoletto with his Carcano as there may well have been a shortage of Carcano Fazzolettos in WW1 and, as described before, the old one would have contained good military information (and useful for wiping your nose in the cold). I am guessing that there might have been a pile of Vetterli Fazzolettos in storage (since the mod.1870/87 was not in service for very long before it was superceded). Conversely Carcano Fazzolettos may have been in short supply and deemed a 'luxury' item due to the contingencies of WW1.
- Perhaps it was a military 'souvenir' from an earlier age that was given to him during recruit training.
All the above is complete guesswork and no more than my imagination......but you introduced an interesting story.

 

Ascari (pronounced "US-cari"in Italian) is the Name (Swahili/Arabic) name for "Soldier" in East Africa. The Native Troops raised by the Italian Colonial Gov't in Eritrea were called "Ascari" and Being Mostly Muslims, wore the red Fez headgear, and Native Garb.

As to those of "Classe 1883", they would have gone to WW I in 1915, as "Reserves" or Support Troops ( Engineers, Medical, Signals, Administration, QM Corp, etc...)as they were in their 30s. The Combat units were made up of soldiers in their 20s ( Classes of 1890 to 99) over the period of the war.( The class of '99 was called up after the disaster of Caporetto ( October 1917) Call-up: Late 1917---into 1918.

My Maternal Grandfather, being a Stonemason and Builder (Classe 1886) went into the Pioneers ( ie, Combat Engineers) and was captured by the Hungarians in 1917. He was considered the "Papa" of his squad ( being the oldest).

Doc AV

 

Check the stock on the $200 Vetterli. It should have cartouches on both sides of the butt, IIRC mine has at least four. If there aren't any it's been sanded and since that's a big part of the Vetterli's charm for me I would wait for another example. Otherwise they are unique rifles: There were seven major advances in military rifles between 1845 and 1945 (minie ball, breach loading, brass cartridge, magazine rifle, high-powered ammo, semi-auto and full-auto) and the Vetterli was the only general issue rifle I've found that was upgraded to incorporate two of those changes: They received magazines in the 1887 mod and were converted to high power ammo in the 1915 mod.

The high power conversion is why some people say the rifle isn't safe to fire with regular Carcano ammo. I haven't heard about any negative effects, but maybe someone more knowledgeable can compare the energy of the 6.5 to the 10.35.

 

The 10.35 mm M1870/87 was used during WW1, usually I see them with heavy or foot artillery troops. While designed for a black-powder round, in 1890 they introduced a jacketed 10.35 mm round using smoke-less powder (and a significantly reduced charge). I remember having a conversation on these boards with someone who had found evidence that they had been used on the frontlines, so some forces, possibly the Milizia Territoriale, had them early in the war?

Anyway, here's a photo of a WW1 artilleryman with an M1870/87 --

P.S. I'm also missing the cleaning rod to my 10.35mm Vetterli-Vitali which is a bummer because I never see them. I'm tempted to get any Vetterli-Vitali cleaning rod, but I never seem to find them for sale.

 

That's a great picture. I have not been able to find a cleaning rod for sale either.

 

Cplcampisi. Fascinating picture. I will PM you about a possibility of a high resolution copy.

Precision. Your unusual story may be exactly as you remember it! As I said earlier its pretty special today to be able to say that your Grandfather was trained on the mod.1870/87.

 

Hello Gents,

Here are two photos, one a close up, that show the difference between the original M70/87 Vetterli clearing rod versus the smaller diameter rod that was issued with the M70/87/15. Per stevenjay's comment above, the original rod has a head that is larger in diameter and a new rod with a smaller diameter head had to be manufactured for issue with the 6.5mm barrel of the M70/87/15.

Note that the two shorter rifles in the right side of the right hand photo are NOT actually shorter weapons. In the other photo on the left they can be seen resting on a step down on a lower level.

However it's interesting to note that quite a few M70/87s turn up these days with the later clearing rod. It's impossible to tell when these were replaced in Italy while still in stores or here in the States after import. As nearly impossible as it is to find originals of either rod these days, keep in mind that the later rod would still fit and function properly in the earlier version. Obviously the reverse is not true.

Regarding front-line use during WWI, while never issued specifically to units that were expected to serve in combat with either variation, both the M70/87 and the M70/87/15 were used in combat on an emergency basis after the disaster at Caporetto. There is also evidence to suggest that early in the war some number of Milizia Territoriale Units may have seen combat while armed with M70/87s prior to the availability of the M70/87/15 conversions.


And of course the 400,000 M1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali Infantry rifles chambered for the 10.4x47mmR cartridge that were supplied to Imperial Russia during WWI saw heavy use in combat.

I hope this info helps.

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

Good morning Gents,

One more quick note Gents, for those of you who haven't done so, the M1870/87 Vetterli-Vitali are excellent shooters! I load fire-formed .348 Win brass with light smokeless powder loads per the conversion formula published in Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions. I use hard-cast 300 grain bullets designed for the .44 Mag and get excellent accuracy.

When time permits, I plan to take this rifle deer hunting. Several years ago I used one of my Austro-Hungarian M1867 Werndl Rifles to take full grown Whitetail spike on a lease in Texas. He dropped to the shot at 90 yards. This load pretty much duplicates the ballistics of a hot .44 Mag load when fired out of a revolver with a 7 1/2" barrel, which is more than adequate for deer out to 150 yards.

Based on my experience shooting the M70/87, when you consider it's use in combat, while I would rather carry a M1891 Mannlicher-Carcano, the four-shot Vetterli would not be ineffective in the hands of an experienced rifleman out to 200 yards. When you consider the fact that large numbers of Russian troops were issued M1870 Berdan II rifles and Mle 1874 Gras rifles, both of which are single-shots, I'd take the Vetterli in a heartbeat over either of these options! Here are a few more examples from my Collection. I've been a long-time huge fan of the Vetterli.

I'm still looking for the M1870 Cavalry Carbine and the M1870/87 TS Carbine to complete my Italian Vetterli Collection. I never expect to find an original M1870 Infantry rifle that is still in single-shot configuration! Or your Cavalry Carbine Doc!!!

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

Thanks for all the info guys. You all have been a big help. JPS would you be interested in selling me a few shells for the 10.4? I would just love to say I shot this rifle and I don't do any reloading or have any equipment to make ammo. Also JPS that is one impressive Italian collection.


Thanks again Pete

 

JPS the majority of italian Vetterli in single shot configuration are from the civilian and Tiro a Segno Nazionale contracts. I have search mine for about 10 years and got it from a old woman, her husband died some time ago, for the crazy price of 250€. The rifle is a Brescia made in 1882, no serial number and prize of a shooting competition in the Tiro a Segno Nazionale di Leno, the plate war rebuilt because the original silver one was lost.

best regards

 

I have a cleaning rod what appears to be a m1870/86 Steyr cleaning rod. It's 82cm (32.3 inches) long. I might can add a photo tomorrow. The plan was to auction it along with some other cleaning rods. I'm open to offers.

Best regards Tommy
Us1945@hotmail.com