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Very unusual Russian Tula 1842 Percussion Musket - help to ID? PICS POSTED

4.1K views 16 replies 6 participants last post by  yuriman  
#1 · (Edited)
Not a Mosin but one of the ancestors - very rare and unusual Russian Percussion Musket made by Tula, dated 1842.
The only (and it looked exactly the same apart from the patchbox lid) musket of that kind I was able to find was discussed about a year ago on the black powder forum (search for "Tula 1842 musket), some people thought it was a bubba gun but now here is a second example.

I have compared this musket to other similar time period rifles (M1828/44 smoothbore flintlock converts, M1845 percussion, Luttich rifles , M1835 prussian jaeger rifle, M1822 french and some others) and here is the side by side comparison to the Russian M1828/44 flintlock conversion made by Izhevsk and dated 1842 - same year.

There are multiple differences (comparing to M1828/44):

1- the shorter overall length
2- slightly different stock with a typical russian raised cheek, the patchbox looks time period correct as the metal hardware is very rusted and the patina on brass is as old as it is on other parts, the buttplate is the same with the russian imperial eagle but it is not serialised, there is a faint cartouche on the left (it is on the right on M1828/44)
3- no provision for the ramrod
4- a button in the bottom rear of the stock (I would presume for the sling), no sling loop goes through the triggerguard ,just a screw (same as on jaeger rifles), front sling loop is similar to jaeger ot Luttich
5- metal insert in the middle of the stock similar to jaeger or Luttich
6- all brass furnishings (typical for the russian rifles) but no dates or serial numbers (russian "BLK" letters and "156" on the trigerrguard and the left screw plate), there is a Czar Nicholas I monogram brass oval insert on the top of the stock neck similar to the one on Luttich rifles.
7- percussion (former flint?) lock is smaller, does not have a brass insert due to a different shape of the percussion insert in the barrel, the hammer is smaller and has a rib, it does not have a serial number. The font is the same as it is on other Tula muskets of the same age
8- the barrel (I was not able to remove the screw holding it to the stock) has a few faint digits on it, is septagonal all the length except the few inches from the tip where it is round with the bayonet lug on the underside.
It is a larger caliber and it is rifled (7 grooves as opposed to 8 grooves on prussian jaeger).
There is a brass front sight and a small nonmovable (or broken off?) rear sight.

I hope Joe Leiper will be able to comment as he started the thread about the russian weapons of Napoleonic - Crimean War time period about 10 years ago but as awesome as it was (and is) I do not think it made it past 1808 ..: (((
 

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#4 ·
It doesn't look like any of the models in Fyodorov's "Atlas" (Атлас чертежей к "Вооружению русской армии за XIX столетие"). The hammer and the nipple bolster are very non-Russian.

Thats't the one from Gunbroker, right? It sold a few weeks back, I watched it.
 
#5 ·
This is beyond interesting to me...thank you for posting...i love history.....to think of the craftsmen making these guns long ago...so obvious the handmade work....is that rifling in the bore? ...read the post but some stuff I'm just not familiar with......accuracy of these ????
I have a modern percussion and sure enjoy it.....
 
#6 ·
Nick - yes, this is the one.
I've looked everywhere (did not make it to the russian gunboards yet), the only one I could find was discussed a year ago on the "black powder" forum (search Tula 1842 musket)
 
#9 ·
I've looked everywhere (did not make it to the russian gunboards yet)
Ask on Guns.ru, it would be interesting to see what the guys there will have to say. You do have Fyodorov's book & atlas, right? Makovskaya discusses XIV to XVIII century guns, so that only leaves Fyodorov.
 

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#7 ·
13 Colony Patriot - yes, the bore is rifled (7 grooves), the accuracy I can only guess (did not shoot it) but reading about Jaeger rifles (which are more similar to that one rather than the smoothbore musket I pictured for comparison)it looks the rifling added to the accuracy a great deal
 
#10 ·
Thank you Nick

Do not have Fyodorov book, any idea where I can get one?
Plan to go on russian sites (they block all the russian sites at my place of work - the witchhunt goes on), just need to find time to do it from home : ))

Dyzhe dyakyu!!
 
#12 ·
Do not have Fyodorov book, any idea where I can get one?
See PM. Fyodorov is a must, he provides extremely detailed descriptions of the models and their accessories & accoutrements.

Here is a sample:
 

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#11 ·
It looks to be a mixture of parts. The action is the 1809 action, a small version of the 1808. It was used on Cossack rifles, Dragoon/Currassier rifles and Carbines as well as the 1809 Pistol. It was made until the production of percussion weapons replaced flint.


Comparison of the 1808 and 1809.

As to it being rifled there were NCO and Jaeger rifles before 1800. This barrel looks to be of that period.
Joe
 
#13 ·
Thank you guys

Joe - if you search for "Tula 1842 musket" on black powder forum there was an identical musket discussed a year ago - is it possible they are both a mixture of parts as you are suggesting?