Yes, I've seen a couple posted here some years ago, but no info beyond that they are very uncommon. You will often see the general importer label of M38 given to many of the various models of Turk Mausers that got updated to the same pattern in the 1930's. As far as I know, only small numbers of these seemed to have been sprinkled in with the larger number of refurbished Turk Mausers imported back in the 1990's. I have not read anything about why these were built, or if they were for mounted troop use, as one might assume. Maybe someone else here has learned more on these over the years since!

 

Looks like the number is 3866, if so can't be a date..

 

Here is mine:

The new, refurb, serial number is on the receiver, bolt, rear sight base, rear sight ladder, rear barrel band in English (Arabic) numerals. The floor plate and trigger guard have mismatched old Ottoman Turkish numbers. The front barrel band, spring loaded latch, top holding plate thing-y, and the bayonet (under the latch) have matching Ottoman Turkish numerals, ١‎ ١‎ ٩‎ ٢‎ (1192.) Interesting the difference in numbering. If they were new you'd think that the bayonets would be matching to the English numerals.

 

Neat rifle, I've never seen one before.
Thanks for sharing pictures.
Dan

 

GreenMan - nice looking rifle! Your copy sounds very similar to mine, two digit refurb serial on bolt and receiver bridge but mixed Turk numbers on other parts. And the bayonet and mounting hardware all match in old Turk numerals as well. Turk-numbered parts must date to pre-1928/29 when they converted to western alphabet and numbers. But if so, what pre-28 Turk rifle used this sort of bayonet? Its short length, spooned shape and ribbed back make is unlikely to have been cut-down from another Turk bayonet model, right? Not sure about that, I know squat about Turk bayonets!

 

Yes, exactly when these got created seems a bit of a mystery. I've never seen photo evidence that they existed during, or before WW1. The early pattern numbering would suggest at least prior to the late 20's, as you mention, but all the known examples seem to have 1937 receiver date as I recall. Possible a 1920's creation that got further updated in the late 30's. Ian points out in his video that the upper band strongly resembles that of the 1891 Carcano. Might it be fabricated from welded up and reshaped Carcano band? The Turks got pretty creative with building rifles. Just look at the so called "Enfauser" rifles built after WW1.

 

Very nice and rare Turkish Mauser Cleo, the bayonet band numbering is a mystery too. I don't know of any older bayonets that look like it either. I think they were made for this mod of the 1903.

 

Wow that is a beauty.. thanks all for the photos..

 

You might try sending Doc AV a PM regarding these rifles. He was at one time doing a s/n study on Turkish Mausers, so might have some more current info for you on these. I've only seen a handful of these posted in the last 10 years or so. If you learn anything, please pass that info on here if you can. I think we are all curious about this variation!

 

No, I haven't recorded any of these " one-offs" due to lack of reference points. Now the pointers are there.
Turkish script numbers on Bayo. Parts == before Nov.1928, possibly much earlier... mid-20s
Italian design bayo band:
In 1922, Italy evacuated its occupation troops from SW. Turkey, LEAVING BEHIND a lot of Carcano rifles, Ammo, etc for the
De-mobilised Turkish Army ( under Ataturk) to utilise.
Not much is known of the fate
of these rifles ( Civil war, war with Greeks).
The Turks began repairing, upgrading, converting rifles from 1923, when Ataturk set up the Govt. Agency, Askari Fabrikalar Ankara ( Military Factories ( administration) Ankara ( new republican capital of Turkey)
The AsFa combined all the Turkish Gun and ammo factories, and eventually added a Powder factory un 1925.
Between 1923 and 29, AsFa
Repaired all the M1888/05 with missing bolts, with New ZB made bolts; created Musketoons from damaged M1888/05,
Created short rifles from. M1890 rifles ( seen one on GB 15-20 yrs ago) and bought inNew and Reconditioned ZB Vz98/22.
All these were Turkish script numbered. Up to Nov. 1928...when Ataturk decreed the change to Roman Script, and Western Indo-Arabic Numbering.

This rifle, bayonet fitted prior to 1929, in 7,65x53 Turk, subsequently rebored/ rebarreled to 7,9x57 Cartridge in early 30s ( hence Roman script and western date.
A real history of development.
Take metal-work out of wood, and look for original German / Turk
Inspection Marks ( rebored barrel) or almost plain barrel
(" 7,90" or "7,91" marking...original lands ( bore) indication for wear determination.
Doc AV
PS once a few of these show up,
Will enter in my Serial Survey, esp. To see if there were sufficient made to form a definitive block, or they were lumped in with the 1903/37 ,or
1903/38 Short Rifle mini series.

A Good exercise whilst I recuperate from my 2nd Aortic Valve replacement Open Heart surgery, with secondary endocarditis, pneumonia, and intestinal problems ( 6 weeks IV
Penicillin at full strenght)...Dec.4th... Discharged
Jan 11th, Home...under care till last Friday (Mar.12th) now on my own, looking forward to physical
Rehab for 6 weeks ...twice a week...and return to "almost working order"....at least for a 72 y.o. ( Mar. 22).
Not Retired yet either, but training up an Apprentice/ Personal Admin. Assistant who can run things for me.
Doc AV

 

Interesting info Doc, and best wishes for a full recovery!

 

Great info as usual Doc, and you are living proof how tough they make 'em Downunder!

 

Doc - best wishes on a return to normal activities!

Great info on the murky history of these Turk rifles.

I will pull the barrel and see what's hiding under the wood. When I do, I will also post some pics to go along with the verbiage.

 

Actually they make them tough in Piemonte
(NW Italy, on French Border) where my ancestors are from...parents migrated 1948-9, I was already " on the way".
Piedmontese Infantry from the late Renaissance and the 1700s were known as " bujia nen" ( don't move, or Stand Fast)
Against approaching enemy....order from Officers and Sergeant - majors.

Thanks for all the good wishes
DocAV ki

 

Have a good recovery DocAV.

I pulled mine apart today. I'll put up some pictures later, but for now two pieces of information:
1. The front band is shaped as it is not due to an Italian connection (afaik) but due to the necessity of needing to reach a screw in the bottom inside of the band. That screw is the attachment / pivot point for the bayonet.
2. My barrel is marked 7.91 under the wood. Also under the wood are two stars and a crecent moon (old inspections stamps I think) and 197 the new, 1938 refurbishment serial number.

 

Here are the pictures (I have pictures of everything is anyone really wants to see them). Not too much under the wood line. The new serial number, 7.91, the two stars and the crescent on the barrel, a star and crescent and H on the trigger, and an old serial number in Turkish on the sear.
Other markings: There is a 2 on the receiver on the surface the bolt rids on. A T on the stock. A German fraktur letter on the stock cross bolt, a German faktur letter and various Turkish and 'English' numbers on the bolt (what you'd expect from a German-made-for-Ottoman-Turks-redone-by-post-1928-Turks rifle).

 

Great pics GreenMan, seems to agree with previous info for pre-28 and post-28 work. Got to be a rifle or carbine somewhere in the Turk Rifle Pantheon that used this bayonet, or perhaps it was approved but never used in its original form. Got to think a short stubby like that was mounted on a carbine, perhaps for mounted troops, cyclists, artillerymen, engineers, etc. All speculation on my part but certainly rabbit holes to run down!

 

Thanks for the great picks under the wood. Are there any markings on the wood in the barrel channel, under side of the hand guard or in the receiver or trigger wells?

My Turk with the folding bayonet (#42) also has a crisp, clean "T" stamped on the bottom of the stock forward of the trigger guard. Any idea what that means? During WWII the Germans used "t" as a national origin indicator for Vz24 rifles taken into German service (Gewehr 24(t), with the "t" meaning "Tschechoslowakisch", the German word for "Czechoslovak". The front sight assembly is reminiscent of the German Kar98Az, but the rear end of the sight is stamped with the Turkish crescent, as is the bolt ball, cocking piece, trigger guard and bayonet locking piece. The only clear German link that remains are two Imperial German Fraktur stamps, one on the port side of the recoil bolt and the other on the top flat of the bolt release lever just ahead of "83", presumably last two digits of the original rifle's serial number. These parts could easily come from pre-WWI era German rifles that were parted out during the 1930s Turk refurbishment process.

Rest of the stock looks like it was arsenal refurbed, very few dings and dents, no cracks, and no other cartouches on the outside of the stock. The starboard side of the butt aft of the sling well has been crudely sanded over a 30x40mm rectangular area that is noticeably lighter color than the rest of the stock. I suspect the rectangle had a decal or some other covering that somebody removed and tried to eliminate its presence by sanding (that didn't work).

Still trying to get the rear barrel band retainer lever to move so I can dismantle this rifle and see what's under the hood. The rifle is really gummed up with old cosmoline. Will post when I worry that band loose!

 

Thanks for the great picks under the wood. Are there any markings on the wood in the barrel channel, under side of the hand guard or in the receiver or trigger wells?

My Turk with the folding bayonet (#42) also has a crisp, clean "T" stamped on the bottom of the stock forward of the trigger guard. Any idea what that means? During WWII the Germans used "t" as a national origin indicator for Vz24 rifles taken into German service (Gewehr 24(t), with the "t" meaning "Tschechoslowakisch", the German word for "Czechoslovak". The front sight assembly is reminiscent of the German Kar98Az, but the rear end of the sight is stamped with the Turkish crescent, as is the bolt ball, cocking piece, trigger guard and bayonet locking piece. The only clear German link that remains are two Imperial German Fraktur stamps, one on the port side of the recoil bolt and the other on the top flat of the bolt release lever just ahead of "83", presumably last two digits of the original rifle's serial number. These parts could easily come from pre-WWI era German rifles that were parted out during the 1930s Turk refurbishment process.

Rest of the stock looks like it was arsenal refurbed, very few dings and dents, no cracks, and no other cartouches on the outside of the stock. The starboard side of the butt aft of the sling well has been crudely sanded over a 30x40mm rectangular area that is noticeably lighter color than the rest of the stock. I suspect the rectangle had a decal or some other covering that somebody removed and tried to eliminate its presence by sanding (that didn't work).

Still trying to get the rear barrel band retainer lever to move so I can dismantle this rifle and see what's under the hood. The rifle is really gummed up with old cosmoline. Will post when I worry that band loose!

Sounds like our rifles are near identical, down to the sanded spot. Mine too has a small sanded spot on the butt. I wonder what used to be there?
The rear band spring on mine also did not like to compress enough to get the band off. It took some doing and a piece of wood to help press the spring down.
There were, as far as I could tell, no markings in the wood other than the T.

 

Very cool! I don't think I've seen a Turk with a folding bayonet before...

 

I finally got my folding bayonet Turkish Mauser apart and have posted a couple pic below to go with those posted by Greenman above.

Neither the barrel channel or the handguard are stamped except for a "T" in the barrel channel under the rear sight base, matching the "T" on the under side of the stock forward of the trigger guard.

If I read DocAVs comments above correctly, the barrel on this rifle is a Turk replacement. The bluing is near perfect, bore is very strong with sharp, prominent lands and grooves, and the barrel shank is stamped "7.91" in large hand-stamped numbers aft of the rear sight base. The port side of the barrel shank also has "42" stamped onit, matching the refurb serial number seen on the rear sight assembly, receiver and bolt. Barrel shank also has a couple 5-point open stars and a squiggly charcater that I assume is a Turkish inspection mark(?). The very bottom of the shank has "209" stamped on it.

The under side of the receiver, aft of the recoil pillar is stamped with a series of single digit stamps (2, 5, 3, 3 etc) but has one clear Imperial German Fraktur "F" stamped on it, suggesting a pre-Weimar Republic age for the original rifle.

The forward end of the rear sight base, under the hand guard retention screw, as well as the port side of the trigger and sear arm (also under the wood line) are stamped with a Turkish crescent moon and open star, similar to the crest on the rifle.

The firing pin is stamped with a Turkish crescent moon and Ottoman Turk digits that translate as 26, matching Ottoman Turk digits on the cocking knob.

Not sure where to go from here, hope somebody down the road discovers some documentation on the very cool rifle. Thanks all for the great input and insight into this little known Turkish rifle!

 

I have received a couple PMs on this post over the last year and thought I would update it with some of those observations.

1. All three of the examples of these folding bayonet-fitted Turkish short rifles (#42, #46 and #197) have the distinctive front sight with rounded ears protecting the sight. This same design was used on German 98AZ and Polish 98AZ short rifles (were there others?). Given the difference in bluing between the barrels and the front sights on the Turk folding bayo examples, it is possible the front sights were robbed from Great War-era German or Polish 98AZs that ended up in Ottoman hands after the war and which were used in the upgrades in the 1930s.

2. All three examples of the folding bayonet-fitted Turkish short rifles have rear barrel bands designed to accommodate both side and bottom-mounted sling use. All three also have a bottom-mounted sling loop attached to the butt stock and a rectangular slot cut through the stock with an enlarge rectangular well on the starboard side. The well on the starboard side does not look like it was designed to take a German-style or Swedish-style buckle but is similar, although not exactly the same, as the sling slot cut into Persian Model 49 carbines (see pic below). Does anyone out there have a better analogy for the sling slot on the Turkish folding bayo models?

3. Ball's 5th Edition of Mauser Military Rifles of the World shows pics of what is termed a Turkish Model 38 Short Rifle, one of which may be a 4th Turkish folding bayonet-fitted short rifle (see page 389). The photos don't show the new serial number assigned to the bayonet-fitted example but it is fitted out the sames as #42, 46 and 197). Unfortunately, the text on the Model 38 Short Rifle section is missing after page 389. The text description of the Model 38 Short Rifle should continue on page 390 but page 390 starts with the section on Uruguay. Clearly there are pages missing in my hard copy version of Ball's 5th Edition and sadly, this same missing info is present in the digital version of Ball's 5th Ed. I do not have earlier editions of Ball's MMROTW so does anyone out there have an earlier edition and if so, is the Model 38 Short Rifle section complete and does it shed any light on the folding-bayonet fitted Turkish model?

Turkish Folding-bayonet fitted short rifle #42

Persian Model 49 carbine

 

I have received a couple PMs on this post over the last year and thought I would update it with some of those observations.
...
3. Ball's 5th Edition of Mauser Military Rifles of the World shows pics of what is termed a Turkish Model 38 Short Rifle, one of which may be a 4th Turkish folding bayonet-fitted short rifle (see page 389). The photos don't show the new serial number assigned to the bayonet-fitted example but it is fitted out the sames as #42, 46 and 197). Unfortunately, the text on the Model 38 Short Rifle section is missing after page 389. The text description of the Model 38 Short Rifle should continue on page 390 but page 390 starts with the section on Uruguay. Clearly there are pages missing in my hard copy version of Ball's 5th Edition and sadly, this same missing info is present in the digital version of Ball's 5th Ed. I do not have earlier editions of Ball's MMROTW so does anyone out there have an earlier edition and if so, is the Model 38 Short Rifle section complete and does it shed any light on the folding-bayonet fitted Turkish model?
Persian Model 49 carbine

and here the respective pages of MMRotW 4th edition, with some more text about Turkish Model M38 Short Rifle. This text was also in the (old) 3rd edition:

Chris

 

Thanks Chris, perfect. And the section missing from the 5th edition includes the wording in the second paragraph of page 369: "The Gew 98AZ was the main weapon to fall under the Model 38 guidelines..." It goes on to mention that the distinctive front sight of the 98AZ was retained, as it is on the bayonet-equipped versions that are the subject of this thread. Still lots unknown here but this is a step in the right direction! Thanks for posting these missing pages!