I'd look around more for .310, but you'll be fine with .311. It will compress slightly against the lands as it travels down the bore. .308 will not be good; those won't grip the lands adequately, and you won't get good accuracy at all.

Sierra has great Match Kings in 174 grain that also work great for .303 British and 7.7 Japanese. I'd also look at Hornady's offerings in the same range (180-200 grains), and Remington has inexpensive 180 grain .310 bullets that you can find in bulk packs at Midway.

FWIW, I use IMR 4064, which works great with all of the milsurp calibers I reload for, including 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser, 7.5 Swiss, 6.5 Swede, .30-06 Springfield, and .303 British.
Pat

 

Use the 200 grain Hornadys mentioned above. They're the closest to what the finns designed for the rifle.

 

Hi! Together my buddy, we load ammo at home using: balls SIERRA Spitzer (175grs) in cal. .311 and we put into the case 44grs powder Vihta Vouri N.140 . Our scores, on the 100 meters / ±110 yards line, are better than with the ordinary ammo. It might be an idea.

 

I tried .308 in mine, wasn't bad, but not great. Would have like for it to work out since the selection of .308 is so much greater... .311's work best in mine.

 

M 39 favorite bullets

I didn't have a convenient way to slug my bore recently so loaded up some .308 bullets (of which I have a lot) and went to the range with my 1943 SK.Y Sako. At 100 yards could keep most of 10 shots in a 2" circle, that is with open sights, an aperture on my glasses, and a rest for the forearm of the rifle. Occasionally I'd do everything right and be rewarded with a better group. Here's the best five shot group of the day. Got some others going but spoiled them with my flyers. The load information is written on the target.
My 1968 M 39 on the other hand definitely likes .311 bullets. The target shows a very low first shot of the day, a high shot to get the 6:00 hold and three relatively quick shots for group at the same temperature. Load information written on target. I have slugged the barrels of most of my rifles but find the ideal bullet according to the measurement does not always shoot the best at the range. (Which probably means my slugging technique is not quite uniform.) Nevertheless I have come to rely on some experimentation with a few different loads before I toss out a bullet size.

 

I didn't have a convenient way to slug my bore recently so loaded up some .308 bullets (of which I have a lot) and went to the range with my 1943 SK.Y Sako. At 100 yards could keep most of 10 shots in a 2" circle, that is with open sights, an aperture on my glasses, and a rest for the forearm of the rifle. Occasionally I'd do everything right and be rewarded with a better group. Here's the best five shot group of the day. Got some others going but spoiled them with my flyers. The load information is written on the target.
My 1968 M 39 on the other hand definitely likes .311 bullets. The target shows a very low first shot of the day, a high shot to get the 6:00 hold and three relatively quick shots for group at the same temperature. Load information written on target. I have slugged the barrels of most of my rifles but find the ideal bullet according to the measurement does not always shoot the best at the range. (Which probably means my slugging technique is not quite uniform.) Nevertheless I have come to rely on some experimentation with a few different loads before I toss out a bullet size.

Good work! In every sense.

 

bullet selection for the m 39

Good morning Sakorick!
Good questions.
first, for context, I am a totally self-taught reloader, read everything i can about it, clip all the articles about it, but do not yet have a chronograph. So I cannot give you much hard data, just my observations about apparent pressure, the behavior of the components, and the observable accuracy in my rifles. Much of what I have learned has been from early authorities like P.O. Ackley, Earl Naramore, Philip B. Sharpe, George Nonte, a lot of the early guys who did not have chronographs; how they dealt with load development, fleshed out with NRA and Precision Shooting articles, and reloading info gleaned off the websites (a LOT!).
High velocity is not important to me in itself, except as it may be a by-product of good case-filling, and in fact i try to avoid anything up near the max. end of the loadbook unless it recommends it for accuracy. As you no doubt have noticed, there is not much concordance on the right load for a given powder, esp. over time. I go with the newer, milder loads when the info is available.
That out of the way, on to your questions.
1) I am using magnum primers with H 380 because I have read in several sources that ball powders were harder to ignite, and magnum primers gave more positive ignition - well all and good, I was skeptical, but on using a batch of CCI std benchrest primers with ball powders like H 380, BL-C(2), and H 414, and getting occasional variable ignition ranging from "click-bang" to a complete squib load, which gave me a case full of yellowish powder, still in granules, and just enough pressure to push the bullet partway down the barrel... well dense I may be, but I got the idea, pushed out the bullet, pulled the rest of that batch and switched over to magnum primers for ball powders, which did not ever give me this problem again. Stick powders seem to be much easier to light and I always use std. primers with those.
2) The 150 gr. Sierra spitzers are indeed flat-based bullets, and an argument can be made that they will be more accurate at short ranges than boattails because of greater uniformity of gas distribution around the flat base. I don't know. Honestly, I like 150 gr. bullets and can stock just a few sizes of Sierra spitzers for my 7.62x54, .303, .30-06, 7.5 Swiss and cover everything, keeping the bullet ballistics relatively constant from rifle to rifle as well.
3) No, and I hope to have that rectified around December 25th of this year.
4) I would have to sort through my target files to answer this with any authority, but my sense is that there was not a dramatic difference between .308 & .311. If memory serves (that's a big "iF" these days) I have a nominal .3095 bore on my M 1968 M39, not counting production variance, etc. and after trying both diameter bullets, settled on .311 because it seemed to be more consistent over 10 shot strings. i got some nice 10 shot groups with those Sierra Pro-Hunter Spitzers so i kept using them.
5) With the charge listed on the target attached, for the 150 gr. bullet, I had no pressure signs nor abnormalities of any sort.
Hope this is useful, Rick.
Good shooting!
Kari

 

Hello Kari....just my $.02. I don't use any ball powder in any of the 40 odd calibers I reload for. I would never start with large for caliber bullets until I was sure the "proper" caliber bullet didn't group. I never work up a load without using the chronograph as I consider it an essential tool for reloading. Lower powder charges than published data can cause dangerous pre ignition and combining large for caliber bullets compounds this issue. I am not an expert on large for caliber bullets, however, it stands to reason 7.62 and 7.899 are quite a ways apart. I do know one thing and that is small for caliber bullets are inherently inaccurate. So to summarize, you are mixing variants(large for caliber bullets and magnum primers) not listed in any manuals so use caution. Finally, seating depth is very important using large for caliber bullets and I'm not sure how consistent the Finns were with freebore. Did Tikka make all the barrels for Sako and VKT? If so, it stands to reason the freebore on all the Finnish rifles should be fairly consistent. I also use the Sierra flat base bullets in most of my Milsurps and they are a sensational hunting bullet as well. Flat base bullets are just as accurate as boat tails but the boat tails have a higher BC which provide greater efficiency and accuracy at long ranges. Try some IMR 4064 if you can find it....you won't be needing a magnum primer to get it burning! Be safe and regards, Rick.

Good morning Sakorick!
Good questions.
first, for context, I am a totally self-taught reloader, read everything i can about it, clip all the articles about it, but do not yet have a chronograph. So I cannot give you much hard data, just my observations about apparent pressure, the behavior of the components, and the observable accuracy in my rifles. Much of what I have learned has been from early authorities like P.O. Ackley, Earl Naramore, Philip B. Sharpe, George Nonte, a lot of the early guys who did not have chronographs; how they dealt with load development, fleshed out with NRA and Precision Shooting articles, and reloading info gleaned off the websites (a LOT!).
High velocity is not important to me in itself, except as it may be a by-product of good case-filling, and in fact i try to avoid anything up near the max. end of the loadbook unless it recommends it for accuracy. As you no doubt have noticed, there is not much concordance on the right load for a given powder, esp. over time. I go with the newer, milder loads when the info is available.
That out of the way, on to your questions.
1) I am using magnum primers with H 380 because I have read in several sources that ball powders were harder to ignite, and magnum primers gave more positive ignition - well all and good, I was skeptical, but on using a batch of CCI std benchrest primers with ball powders like H 380, BL-C(2), and H 414, and getting occasional variable ignition ranging from "click-bang" to a complete squib load, which gave me a case full of yellowish powder, still in granules, and just enough pressure to push the bullet partway down the barrel... well dense I may be, but I got the idea, pushed out the bullet, pulled the rest of that batch and switched over to magnum primers for ball powders, which did not ever give me this problem again. Stick powders seem to be much easier to light and I always use std. primers with those.
2) The 150 gr. Sierra spitzers are indeed flat-based bullets, and an argument can be made that they will be more accurate at short ranges than boattails because of greater uniformity of gas distribution around the flat base. I don't know. Honestly, I like 150 gr. bullets and can stock just a few sizes of Sierra spitzers for my 7.62x54, .303, .30-06, 7.5 Swiss and cover everything, keeping the bullet ballistics relatively constant from rifle to rifle as well.
3) No, and I hope to have that rectified around December 25th of this year.
4) I would have to sort through my target files to answer this with any authority, but my sense is that there was not a dramatic difference between .308 & .311. If memory serves (that's a big "iF" these days) I have a nominal .3095 bore on my M 1968 M39, not counting production variance, etc. and after trying both diameter bullets, settled on .311 because it seemed to be more consistent over 10 shot strings. i got some nice 10 shot groups with those Sierra Pro-Hunter Spitzers so i kept using them.
5) With the charge listed on the target attached, for the 150 gr. bullet, I had no pressure signs nor abnormalities of any sort.
Hope this is useful, Rick.
Good shooting!
Kari

 

FYI, I reload for a M28/30 and some for M39s.

I use Varget powder, 46gn. Standard primers. Never had a mis fire.

The M39 shoots under 1" groups with scope with Hornady 3131. The bore on this M39 is not the greatest. With surplus and scope I get only ~4" groups.

The M28/30 has no scope, but in a good day shoots 1" at 100yds with .308 match bullets.

Daniel39

 

I use Lapua .309 185grn D46 bullets in mine with a mild load of Vihtavouri N140 behind it.

Try to find some Lapua D166 200grn bullets. They mike out at a true .310 and are the bullet that was/is loaded in in the Finnish military 'D' round.

The Lapua agent here does not list them, and will only bring me in some if I order a few thousand.....

 

The Lapua D166 bullet is the original M39 bullet. "D" marked Finn rifles are modified to use them. Midway here in the US has some. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=721823

Note they call them .308, but a reviewer said his measured .3095" Interesting...

I don't know of any source in the US that has the .309 Lapua bullets.

 

Careful now Daniel 39

When you state great accuracy out of a milsurp on this board, the sunami if doubters will be stalking you.

For me: I believe it entirely. Good for you and better yet: + Great shooting .

Hopefully others will take notice that bad accuracy is not the norm from a Mosin.

Too much talk about these rifles being 3 MOA or greater as the norm.

Guys like you prove that ain't necessarily so.

 

When you state great accuracy out of a milsurp on this board, the sunami if doubters will be stalking you.

For me: I believe it entirely. Good for you and better yet: + Great shooting .

Hopefully others will take notice that bad accuracy is not the norm from a Mosin.

Too much talk about these rifles being 3 MOA or greater as the norm.

Guys like you prove that ain't necessarily so.

Unfortunately, 3-4 MOA is about what I got with Bulgarian suplus off a rest with scope. 1 MOA I have only seen only with handloads so far.

I have a few "unissued" Tikka M91/30s and a B-Bbl M39 that shoot very well with PRVI.

My theory is that unless the muzzle is perfect, variability in powder charge and bullet size/weight (surplus ammo) causes spread.

 

Milsurp ammo spreads

Yesterday, my M39 printed Pole, CZech and Hungarian light ball in distinctly 3 different places and the Bulg. Heavy ball was dead center to Pt. of Aim. Reloading is the only solution to controlling the ammo variable it seems.

 

Yesterday, my M39 printed Pole, CZech and Hungarian light ball in distinctly 3 different places and the Bulg. Heavy ball was dead center to Pt. of Aim. Reloading is the only solution to controlling the ammo variable it seems.

All I can say is my VKT M39 does real fine with .311" bullets. Not so hot with .308" ones.

Hi !
+1 about what milprileb wrote. This is the only way to realize your “right bullet” to have good scores. By this way you can make a bullet “on your size” considering yourself, your gun and your ways to shoot.
Hi gangdog56 , I too realize(d) my best scores shooting balls in .311; in my case, on the 100 meters line: spitzer in 175grs, 44grs. Vihtavouri powder N 140.

 

All I can say is my VKT M39 does real fine with .311" bullets. Not so hot with .308" ones.

 

I just bore slugged my M39 "B" barrel and it measured .310. I have been using a Sierra 150 SP .311, with decent results. The bore slugging tutorial says Ideally the bullet should be slightly smaller than the groove diameter. With that in mind, should I be looking at .310 and/or .308 sized bullets? Could using the.311 build up too much pressure or be less accurate?

I use Lapua .309 185grn D46 bullets in mine with a mild load of Vihtavouri N140 behind it.

Try to find some Lapua D166 200grn bullets. They mike out at a true .310 and are the bullet that was/is loaded in in the Finnish military 'D' round.

The Lapua agent here does not list them, and will only bring me in some if I order a few thousand.....

Hi folks! On yesterday I finally bought the Lapua D166 and... today I was at shooting range with my M91/30. Look at the picture: inside the red circle are 5 shots realized with Lapua D166 (200grs) & 42grs powder Vihtavuori N.140 behind; inside the yellow circles are 5 shot realized with ordinary (military) Barnaul ammo. Not really the same thing, isn't it ?

 

Nice graphic for comparison, and nice shooting Attilio!
Those Finnish components do perform well.

 

ooops! I forgotten.

Sorry folks, I forgotten to tell: what before wrote has been done on the 100 meters (about 110 yards) line, only front- & rear- sight.

 

Here's my first load in a '42 Sk.Y M39 using .311 174gr SMK's behind some Varget. 100yds groups measuring 1.80" and 2.00".

 

Good work! Nice series!

 

Just saw this thread.

I've had good luck with the D166 bullets and Varget powder. From my '43 Sako, they will shoot one inch, five shot groups. From my '43 Tula PU, I put four out of five in the same hole. My '42 VKT, however, doesn't seem to like this bullet with any powder I've tried. That has me scratching my head.

I've also had great luck with the Sierra 180 grain .311 soft points. They seem to group in the 1-2 inch range with most powders, through almost all of the Mosin rifles I've put them through. For plinking and hunting, this would probably be my preferred bullet, due to cost vs. accuracy.

The Hornady .3105 has been OK, but I found that I had to weigh them all and try to match groups by bullet weight, as they were very inconsistent. When I matched them by weight, they did much better.

My .02

John

 

I quit shooting jacketed bullets in my milsurps (SKS, the exception) 20 years ago. I cast bullets to fit my throat and bore, the accuracy is excellent and my barrels look as good today as they did when I bought the rifles. Sure, casting is a little bit of work but once you get the hang of it, it's easy. I cast a couple hundred bullets in a sit and I'm set for a few trips to the range. Top accuracy for pennies a bullet.

And more to the topic, I shoot a 210 grain , .313" diameter cast bullet from my SAKO M-39. When my eyes were better I'd win the local cast bullet BR matched with it. It shot as well as I could hold. ~AMMOe

 

.3095 match bullets - anybody?

Does anyone know of available .3090 or .3095 bullets in the 150-180gn weigth?

I have both the Hornady 3131 (.3105, too big diam) and the Lapua D166 (.3100 200gn, heavy).

I think some of my rifles would shoot best with a .3095 bullet.

I know .3100 is available in the 125gn weigth.

Secondly, has anyone slugged a modern 308 barrel. What was the result?

 

Thinkin bout goin there.

I've been looking at reloading and have plans to go with the .303 Caliber (.3105) 174-Grain FMJ BT Hornady
My reasoning is that the best surplus I can find turns out to be these at .3105

My last rip to the range with the above surplus from 100 yards. The Ws are Wolf 150 grain also from 100 yards. 12/02/09

And my last trip to the field with the surplus listed above 11/15/09. Double lunged her twice because the first bullet didn't even seem to slow and ricocheted.

And the heavy ass sob I built up and smoothed out.

Been thinking about this press set up.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/40367-1.html
These dies.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/40413-1.html

And one of these to rework surplus as I've heard it can come together right if handle with care.
http://stores.queensmountainoutfitters.com/-strse-69784/Bullet-Puller/Detail.bok

Any words from the wise?

I just snapped off another shot with the Wally World wuss cush on the butt, sling and cartridge holder. I can shoot all day long now without any pain to the shoulder.

Oh damn all that post and I'm shooting a 91/30!

 

I prefer Lapua S405 for short distance (100-150).
It´s only 8 grams, but .311. Infact it is "official" bullet for Finnish RK62 assault rifle.
With my very limited shooting abilities there is no difference with D166 in this distance. When shooting 300 meters, D166 wins.
Here in Finland price is perhaps half of D166 price.

 

I have always had very good accuracy in 7.62 x 54 using the Sierra .311 and Speer .311 150 gr. SP bullets. This with H4895, IMR4895, Varget, IMR 4064, H4350 and IMR 4350. The Hornaday 150 .312 SP have been very good too - Even with a larger diameter in .310 bores.

A long time ago I used to use the Remington .310 180 gr RN with good results and IMR 4350. The Hornaday .312 174 gr. RN has shot about the same for me.

Used the Sierra .311 174 gr MK a lot when it first came out, which were great, but then switched to the Hornaday .312 174 gr BTHPM as they performed as well for me and cost less.

Bought a bunch of the PRVI Partizan .311 150 gr. FMJ and found them initially to be a little inconsistant, but My Remington M91 and Tikka M91 really like them. The PRVI Partizan 150 gr SPs were good but not great.

Then....

Nowadays I primarily use the Hornaday 174 gr FMJBT .3105 (sometimes .310 123 gr. V-Max)in all my Mosin Nagants that span a bore size of from .309-.310 (M91, M24, M27, M28, M39 & M91/30s). I shoot three or four different MNs usually a time when I go to the range and this works fine for all. Most of my Finn Nanagant's have not been very finicky as to bullet diameters as long as they are not under .309 dia. I wouldn't use anything larger than .312 dia. I am not suggesting anyone use what I do - Just works for me...The only problem that I've had with the .312 has been more copper residue in the bore which comes right out.

I am loading for 7.62 x 54, 7.7 Jap, .303 British and 7.65 x 53 regularily so I will try to find the bullet that satisfies most of my needs and the Hornaday 174 gr. 174 gr FMJBT .3105 does that.

Also - I believe many images of great groups fired and posted on the internet because I fire them regularily too! In the High Power matches I am usually ranked in the middle - If I can do it than I know that many others can too (I'm not a great shot)! Many people say that their M28/M39 rifles shoot under 1" - That is true but may not be the average, or the average with just one load. If it is the average with ALL loads they have an amazing rifle!

Most M39 rifles with a good bore can shoot 1" - 2 " five-shot round groups from the bench and a good sandbags set-up at 100 yds with handloads - Some better. I haven't had one M39 with a decent bore do worse. All the Tikka M19/30s that I've shot will do better (I currently own and shoot three) than my M39s.

Sorry, long answer to a short question! I wouldn't worry about the .311 causing problems if loaded carefully.

Tiledude

 

Mosin accuracy

Okay we got Kari and Joop and guys from Europe all shooting under an inch and getting great groups out of Mosins.

Now where is that guy last month who gave me the scientific justification that the human eye could not achieve that kind of focus with iron sights at 100 yds and print under an inch groups?

That guy with the statistical analysis / predictability argument WHY IT CANNOT BE DONE.

Fact is : IT IS DONE and its not just me doing it.

Those collector Mosins can shoot guys: get out there and do your part. If its a worn out bore, you got a excuse for 3 MOA and worse. If not: you ain't got any excuses.

I think the great thing about this thread is it definitely shines sunshine on the truth about accuracy.

 

Okay we got Kari and Joop and guys from Europe all shooting under an inch and getting great groups out of Mosins.

Now where is that guy last month who gave me the scientific justification that the human eye could not achieve that kind of focus with iron sights at 100 yds and print under an inch groups?

That guy with the statistical analysis / predictability argument WHY IT CANNOT BE DONE.

Fact is : IT IS DONE and its not just me doing it.

Those collector Mosins can shoot guys: get out there and do your part. If its a worn out bore, you got a excuse for 3 MOA and worse. If not: you ain't got any excuses.

I think the great thing about this thread is it definitely shines sunshine on the truth about accuracy.

Hah! Accuracy provides the truth. The guy with the statistic analysis probably hasn't shot a 1" (or sub 1")group yet (I'm not trying to be a jerk!) - It isn't that hard or rare with the right technique and rest. The human eye/brain/muscles/nerves can see and shoot that well with open sights - Not just aperture sights either.

I was a the range a few weeks ago and shot a sub 1" five-shot group (five touching like a little asterisk) with my 1889 Schmidt Rubin rifle with extremly coarse sights. I cannot always shoot a group that tight with this rifle - Usually 2" or so.

With my M91/30 Tikkas, M39 1970, K31 SR, M1A, M96 Swede it is not unusual to shoot 1" or sub 1" 5-shot groups off the bench at 100 yds. Most with handloads, some with factory.

Tiledude

 

Schroeder Bullets makes several .310" dia bullets

Schroeder Bullets
1421 Thermal Ave.
San Diego, California 92154
Telephone (619)423-3523 / -8124

 

Here's a target I shot just a few weeks ago or so with a newly acquired 28/30.

I prefer to shoot cast bullets as well. In this instance I was shooting a 180 grain cast bullet, gas checked, using 18 grains of Alliant 2400, all shot at 50 yards. The note at the bottom of the target was to let me know what to do if I shot that round out of that Mosin at 100 yards. If I wanted to shoot 100+ yards then I would certainly go with FMJ or SP and use around 38 grains of IMR 4064.

Regards,
Eric

 

Comments

The minority on this forum are the guys on this thread that are riflemen and use these collector weapons as intended: to hit the target and do it as accurately as possible.

It would be helpful gentlemen if you would be more vocal on this accuracy when the younger generation writes of 3 MOA as being normal for milsurp weapons and ammo. The majority of them have no formal marksmanship training nor military service and their experience is what they see on the range : and the majority of people on ranges blast and plink.

Old rifles that are collectable are not necessarily inaccurate. Old shooters are not necessarily inaccurate. Young shooters do not know the potential of the rifles and need
to hear from us and push themselves to shoot for accuracy.

How about posting more frequently your success shooting these milsurp rifles so that the younger generation will get the message about marksmanship and accuracy.

One does not have to reload as most of us do to achieve accuracy. The younger generation of collectors need to see more comments from guys like you who make it happen on accuracy and set the record straight: IT CAN BE DONE.

Iron sights, sub MOA accuracy at 100 yds: As said: done many times with these collectable rifles without altering their original configuration.

 

"The minority on this forum are the guys on this thread that are riflemen..."

EXACTLY.

+1 for actually using your rifles for their intended purpose!