from 1951

 

Post some pics! Sounds like an interesting rifle.

 

They are offered in various Parker Hale catalogs.

 

About what year would they have appeared,price?Any chance of a pic? Thanks.

 

The price was 16 guineas

 

MK VII, thank you for posting the catalog pages. Learn something new every day! The model D & E stocks give the old P14 a very sleek look (slightly reminiscent of the Ross .280 sporters).

 

Thanks very much Mk V11,my rifle is a model E.Looks exactly like the the one in the ad except it has a Pachmayr pad.Fourteen inch pull,feels good,points good.Will try to shoot this coming week.Paid $230 hope it was not too much,but for a nice .303 with a perfect bore and tapped for scope mounts I am happy.

 

I just picked up a BSA SN H183XX that is in 30-06. Many similar markings to the .303. I have scoured the internet and have not found much info. Do you have this model in your catalog? Is there anything that you could tell me about it? One thing that I noticed is that in the receiver area on the left side where some of the receiver was machined off there is a discoloration almost to a purple color. I understand the heating from machining that probably caused this but a guy said that it might be that the receiver was de-milled (cut with a torch) and that it might be unsafe to fire. After very close examination I do not think that it was cut. The
right side does not show the discoloration. Also on the rear of the receiver below the scope mount the same discoloration appears. Is this normal for these rifles? It has great rifling yet. I am still cleaning it. Do you think that it is a must to have the headspace checked? Any other thoughts would be great. Thanks for your time. Greg in Kansas

 

Greg,it sounds like you may have a BSA Royal Line light weight rifle.These were made from 57 to 1959.They have the cut out on the receiver you mentioned.Does it have a built in muzzle brake?Does it have integral dovetail scope mount bases?Mine has checkered walnut stock.My copy of Bolt Action Rifles by Frank de Haas has an article on them.

 

It does not have a muzzle break or the intergral dovetail scope mount bases. I am not sure, but from th eserial number I am not sure that the receiver was not built in 1917! That is something I would like to confirm..... If it is, it will be my oldest firearm!! Thanks Greg

 

I also have a 30-06 sportered by BSA on the M1917 action. Great rifle. The machining on these guns would cost a small fortune to duplicate today, with the new or re-contoured barrel
(mine appears new), sights added, receiver milling/plugging/ drilling and tapping, not to mention having the bottom metal completely redone. My stock is of the heavier variety and I ought to spring for a lighter weight one.

The .303 version has the advantage of already having a magnum sized bolt face....with the huge action it would only need a re-barrel in a really stomping heavy game caliber and a little magazine massage to make a first class dangerous game gun. It could handle rounds as large as .416 Rigby case with ease.

 

303hunter

That one looks alot like the one I picked up. What type of accuracy are you getting from that rifle? Mine is drilled and tapped for weaver scope bases. I have the ramp front sight like yours, but my rear sight is and adjustable (leaf) sight. Thanks for the picks. Mine came with a Weaver K-4 scope. I was told it rode behind the seat of a pickup for many years. It had quite a bit of surface rust. It cleaned up pretty good with some steel wool and instant blueing. I took it out and shot it! I was shooting 2 liter pop bottles at 20 yards. Mainly function testing it. Everything seemed fine except when I pull the bolt back the empty brass will not eject from the receiver, I have to manually pull it out. Guess I need to figure out what to do about that. Any thoughts? Thanks Greg in Kansas

 

For many years these were the only magnum length actions that were within the reach of the working man, and many were converted.

 

While this rifle is also drilled and tapped for scope bases, I like the old Lyman peep. I can easily get 1.5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards just shooting off the hood of my truck.

Check your extractor for a hairline crack near the claw end that will hamper effectiveness by reducing spring tension. Also check the extractor claw itself, it may be worn or have been fooled with and isn't grabbing the case rim. The extractor on the P14 and M1917 is the only part which can be expected to give any trouble.

If the extractor is pulling the case out of the breech, but the case is not being thrown clear, check the blade ejector located in the ejector box.

Parts are available, check www.e-gunparts.com.

These rifles are easily worked and still popular as heavy game rifles. They enjoy a well deserved reputation for fine accuracy, although they are quite heavy compared to the current crop of lightweight commercial arms.

I am thinking that I may rework mine from 30-06 to .375 H&H caliber someday.

 

Here's one from a M17 30-06

Anyone have some infos about the availlable models made out of M17?
Here's one, with details.
Before proceeding work on military actions it is widely admitted that the receivers should be heaten and slow cooled (nromalized) before being milled/drilled and tapped, then after suface-hardened and B.S.A. had the facilities to easily do it in a large scale, so it's really unlikely that the torch was used at all (anyways, it does not makes a clear cut) and if any blue came out of the machining, it surely would have been removed under finishing process.
Note the cool purple color of the receiver and barrel markings.
Checkered sporterized military stock, drilled and tapped for scope and receiver sight.

 

Anyone have some infos about the availlable models made out of M17?
Here's one, with details.
Note the cool purple color of the receiver and barrel markings.
Checkered sporterized military stock, drilled and tapped for scope and receiver sight.

Hi:

I have the same gun without a scope. It appears that yours has Weaver rings and bases. Do you know the model number of teh bases? I would like to put a scope on mine. My father bought it used in 1958 when we lived in Northwestern Ontario. They were very commn there. I knew at least a dozen other folks who had them.

 

WOW! My serial number is H931X! only three rifles away from yours on the production line.
I have identical markings on my chamber, which I interpet as 30-06, 2 and 1/2" chamber, Proofed w/ 41 grains nitrocellulose under a 220 grain bullet.

 

303 Hunter, in wich part of the country are you?.... seems we can find more, I know a fellow having another in quite the same series but it's now chambered in .378 Weatherby. Does yours carry the same stocking configuration?
I think you're correct about the markings, it's not an uncommon form.

 

I am in East Central North Carolina! Milsurp heaven! My stock is an aftermarket sporter variety, see pics this thread!

 

303 hunter,I believe the stock on your BSA 30-06 is original,as the cheek piece and checkering are the same as on my 303.Check the Parker-Hale catalog on the first page of this thread.

 

Ho! Sorry, 303Hunter, I think I was still sleeping when I posted!
So, it's even funnier. I am in Quebec, the .303 paradise (where there's at least one in every familly) and the other rifle i'm talking about is here, too.

 

Was surfing to find more history on this particular rifle. I own a BSA in 30.06. I had it customized about 20 years ago, at which time I found out some history from the gunsmith. The BSA is based upon the P14 Enfield action. There is a commonly held misconception that versions other than .303 British but rather 30.06 therefore must be P17 actions. Not so. The P14 was built by Enfield in England prior to and for WW1. I believe the "14" designates the year it went into production. When the US entered into the war the rights to this action for military production were granted to Remington, and I think Winchester as well. It was designated as the P17, and were made only in the US, specifically to fit the 30.06 military caliber. BSA used the P14 version built in England by Enfield, which are commonly found in Canada. If you have one of these in a caliber other than .303, you may have experienced a tendency for the bolt to slip past shells without picking them up...unless you work the bolt vigorously. The reason for this is inherent in the design of the P14, which was created for "rimmed" .303 British cartridges. Because they're rimmed, they're larger in diameter than the 30.06. Thus the magazine effectively is about 1/8 to 3/16 inches wider than is ideal for the 30.06. This causes the 30.06 shells to stagger too much and almost jam in the magazine. Working the bolt hard literally snaps them free enough for the follower spring to lift them into contact with the bolt. To my knowledge, and the gunsmith's at the time, there was no marketed cure for this. However, I effected a bit of a cure on mine by carving some plastic out of a bleach bottle to the shape of magazine sides and placing them within, slipperiest side out, which did help some. Bit Mickey Mouse, but works better. Apparently the steel used in the P14 actions is incredibly strong, making these ideal for just about any magnum cartridge that will fit the magazine. My gunsmith had a helluva time getting bluing to take to the action. My particular rifle is remarkably accurate. BSA put good barrels on these. What they didn't do was a good job of machining the top of the action where the scope mounts go. I had a Bushnell scope tube bent to the point of placing shots about 5 inches apart at 3x compared to 9x. The gunsmith found the fault in the rifle and corrected it accordingly. Bushnell, good guys that they are, repaired my scope no charge. One way to overcome this would be, IMHO, to use Burris Signature Zee rings, which by their design compensate for misalignment. Anyway, these are great guns, with some very interesting history behind them. As side note, which I'm really interested in hearing confirmed one way or the other... The gunsmith also showed me a marking low on the action which indicated that the actual action itself was in fact, he stated, manufactured in Germany for Enfield...??? I assume this would have been prior to hostilities breaking out in WW1. Anyone else ever hear of this???

 

Was surfing to find more history on this particular rifle. I own a BSA in 30.06. I had it customized about 20 years ago, at which time I found out some history from the gunsmith. The BSA is based upon the P14 Enfield action. There is a commonly held misconception that versions other than .303 British but rather 30.06 therefore must be P17 actions. Not so. The P14 was built by Enfield in England prior to and for WW1. I believe the "14" designates the year it went into production. When the US entered into the war the rights to this action for military production were granted to Remington, and I think Winchester as well. It was designated as the P17, and were made only in the US, specifically to fit the 30.06 military caliber. BSA used the P14 version built in England by Enfield, which are commonly found in Canada. If you have one of these in a caliber other than .303, you may have experienced a tendency for the bolt to slip past shells without picking them up...unless you work the bolt vigorously. The reason for this is inherent in the design of the P14, which was created for "rimmed" .303 British cartridges. Because they're rimmed, they're larger in diameter than the 30.06. Thus the magazine effectively is about 1/8 to 3/16 inches wider than is ideal for the 30.06. This causes the 30.06 shells to stagger too much and almost jam in the magazine. Working the bolt hard literally snaps them free enough for the follower spring to lift them into contact with the bolt. To my knowledge, and the gunsmith's at the time, there was no marketed cure for this. However, I effected a bit of a cure on mine by carving some plastic out of a bleach bottle to the shape of magazine sides and placing them within, slipperiest side out, which did help some. Bit Mickey Mouse, but works better. Apparently the steel used in the P14 actions is incredibly strong, making these ideal for just about any magnum cartridge that will fit the magazine. My gunsmith had a helluva time getting bluing to take to the action. My particular rifle is remarkably accurate. BSA put good barrels on these. What they didn't do was a good job of machining the top of the action where the scope mounts go. I had a Bushnell scope tube bent to the point of placing shots about 5 inches apart at 3x compared to 9x. The gunsmith found the fault in the rifle and corrected it accordingly. Bushnell, good guys that they are, repaired my scope no charge. One way to overcome this would be, IMHO, to use Burris Signature Zee rings, which by their design compensate for misalignment. Anyway, these are great guns, with some very interesting history behind them. As side note, which I'm really interested in hearing confirmed one way or the other... The gunsmith also showed me a marking low on the action which indicated that the actual action itself was in fact, he stated, manufactured in Germany for Enfield...??? I assume this would have been prior to hostilities breaking out in WW1. Anyone else ever hear of this???

Sorry but your seriously miss-informed on this. Accordign to the BSA history the guntrade was offered some 14,000 assorted P-14 and US rifle Model 1917 rifles in various states of repair by the MOD in 1949. BSA Initially turned it down before a manager took it up and they purchased them and then proceeded to sort through them and grade them before scrappign over half og them as unsuitable. The remained were converted into the BSA Models A through E. The P-17's were either left at .30 Springfield or fitted with new barrels of BSA Manufacture in .270 Winchester.

The P-14 is an adaption of the P-13 which was designed for a Rimless cartridge of .276" calibre after hostilities began it was converted to take the normal issue MkV11 cartridge in .303. and if you bent a scope fitting it you had the wrong mounts! not only that but a lot of cheap scopes vary the POI with magnification changes anyway it also sounds like the Gunsmith is not that competant .

 

One more thing... Dayton Traister makes a replacement single stage trigger for the P17, and now apparently (see link) for the P14 as well. About 20 years back I ordered a trigger from them, as the original is a military 2 stage and basically just sucks! It fit, but didn't work right. I determined the problem, sent it back with suggested cure, which they, while mystified somewhat, effected and returned to me. It's worked like a hot damn ever since, and greatly improves the rifle for accuracy on the bench. http://www.daytraco.com/ If ordering, I'd specifically specify that it's for a P14 Enfield made in Britain. Well worth the reasonable price!

 

P.14

Springer, I am sorry but you have got your P.14 history pretty mixed up!

P.14 is an abbreviation for Pattern 1914, the British designation for the rifle showing the year it was adopted. Pattern 14 rifles were never made at Enfield.

Prior to WWI the British designed a new rifle in .276" calibre and about 1100 trial models were made at RSAF Enfield. These were called the Pattern 1913 and would have become the new British service rifle but for two factors. The rifle needed more work as there were problems with the ammunition, pressure, flash, fouling etc., and also because WWI broke out.

Britain decided to manufacture the P.13 in .303" calibre and call it the P.14. As there was limited manufacturing capacity in the UK, Enfiled, BSA and LSA being fully committed to the SMLE, Winchester and Remington were approached and contracts placed for 1 million rifles. Remington opened a further factory at Eddystone and eventually contracts vor 3.6 million rifles were placed.

There was also a plan for Vickers in the UK to manufacture 100,000 P.14s, but that never happened.

Delivery of the US rifles was seriously delayed and eventually in 1917 2.4 milion rifles were cancelled and about 1.2 million delivered. It was at this point that the US started to manufacture the Model 1917 in 30-06 calibre on the machinery that had been used for the P.14.

ALL the P.14s are US manufactured, including any converted by BSA. The Germans certainly never made P.14 receivers. What is much more likely is that you were shown a BSA or Parker Hale sporterised Mauser 98 action, and these were certainly made post WW2 from re-worked German military K98s and often still had Waffenamt markings showing on magazine plates and screws etc.

The above is a very brief history of the P.13/P.14/M1917 but I hope it clears things up.

Regards
TonyE

 

Tony, I'm learning in the last few days that my gunsmith of 20 some years ago didn't quite have it all straight. Sorry about that!

At that time the Internet didn't even exist. And hadn't thought much about it until the last few days when I came across the subject on a couple forums.

What I'm trying to determine now is whether my BSA is a P14 or a P17. I have a hard time believing a P17 would be produced for military purposes with a magazine that presented feeding problems...unless this problem is unique somehow for just my own rifle, for which I can't find any material flaws.

Anyway, here's a couple pics of my old beast. You'll note that I preserved the bolt handle and large magazine as I wanted the rifle to reflect its original design.

 

Springer,
It is not possible to say if your rifle picture is a P14 or a M17 from those pictures.
See it that way; the bolt face of the P14 is somewhat more "opened" in accordance to the rimmed cartridge it was made for (the .303 British). The M17 (and NOT P-17) was made for 30-06 Sprg, so the bolt head will fit the rim of this round.
If it was a P14 wich was fitted with a 30-06 Sprig barrel, the extractor won't catch the rim of the 30-06 and the brass would be loose on the bolt face.
Hope this helps.

 

Couple clues to this...

1) It is a cock on closing rifle, not on opening. I understand the British specifically designed them that way for their forces. Did the US military require the M(P)17 to also cock on closing?

2) Couple markings on the barrel, from memory as I'm at work: "NO GRs 41 30.06 220 Bullet" There's a string of 5 letters I can't remember exactly, starting I think with BV.... Also something that looks like 3 small crowns just above the markings.

3) While it's a Mauser style control feed, I can drop a cartridge and close the bolt on it without picking it up out of the magazine.

?????

 

Both the P14 and M17 are identical in mechanism, only the bolt face is different, both are cock-on-closing. It is basically the same rifle, the biggest difference being the caliber (while there are more differences, it does not really concern your questioning).
Later, after WWI, Remington used the M17 action to produce their Model 30 and then, after couple of years of manufacture, modified the mechanism to be cock-on-open.
The markings are discussed above and shows the civilian proof load.
Rebarreled P14/M17 action was widely used as a target rifle, often used as a single shot rifle.