[JIMMY C]

Mexican Model 1936

Picked this little gem up a few weeks ago... Been looking for one for decades. Love the look of the stock.. Oak?

www.gunboards.com

 

[krukster86]

Mexican Model 1936

Picked this little gem up a few weeks ago... Been looking for one for decades. Love the look of the stock.. Oak?

www.gunboards.com

Holy cow, that is a museum quality piece!

 

[Cleo45]

Mexican M1910, 1931 stamp, all matching, serial # 11185

Rifle under wood and under front sight ladder is cosmoline covered so I have no pics there

You have me intrigued: what is your out-of-the-box theory on these?

 

[peterbats59]

Fal Grunt -- you have provided some evidence that might answer a question that has been asked and unanswered for many, many years. I am not a Mauser collector and know nothing about the rifle in your photos. Where was it manufactured? Are there any other inspector's marks or other marks on the barrel that would indicate when the barrel was made? Did Mauser pull existing barrels from a warehouse for mating up with the 1931-dated receiver? Here is why I ask ...
This is the inspector's mark seen on your barrel:

And this is the inspector's mark seen on virtually every component part of all but one (maybe two) known surviving Mondragon M1908 rifles, in all versions, that were manufactured by SIG at Neuhausen, Switzerland, in about 1908-10, for the Mexican Government:

Although there are slight variations between them, it is my opinion that these marks are the same, placed by the same inspector.

We do know for a fact that the inspector who placed the marks on the Mondragon rifles was not actually doing his work in Mexico because all Mondragon rifles carry the mark on nearly all metal parts, even though only about 400 rifles were delivered before the Mexican Government cancelled the contract -- all the rest, both assembled rifles and unassembled parts, remained at SIG Neuhausen until purchased by the Germans at the outbreak of WW1. This inspector's mark found all over the Mondragon rifle has always been a mystery. My theory is that it is the personal mark of an inspector working for the Mexican Government at the Neuhausen plant during the Mondragon production run in 1908-10. The mark on your barrel could also be the mark of that same inspector working on behalf of the Mexican Government -- but where and when? 22-odd years later? Or was your barrel actually manufactured much earlier than the date on the receiver? And who was he? A Mexican armorer living in Europe? A European armorer hired by Mexico?

Any light you might shed on this would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps other Mauser collectors have seen this inspection mark? I have scoured the photographic evidence of other guns produced by SIG at Neuhausen and the mark does not appear on even one other gun; the Mondragon M1908 was the only gun made by SIG at Neuhausen for Mexico, as far as I am aware, and it is the only gun that carries that inspector's mark.

 

[ecreegan]

Interesting bit of history! Would be great to nail that down.

 

[DocAV]

Question, FG, was the Mexican M1910, a small Ring ( M95) receiver with a M98 bolt ( 2 lugs plus Safety Lug and Shielded Bolt FP), a Mexican Development ( FNA) or a Design initially made by DWM/ Mauser???
The M1936 introduced Springfield 1903 Features,
and was an FNA development.

Doc AV, searching for knowledge on rifles I don't have, and probably never will! ( our only Mexicans--
Border Jumpers-- come from New South Wales...the Patagonians from Victoria!!!!

Sunny Queensland, into Summer, with a La Niña wet season ( Flooding Rains)...good for Sugar Cane, bad for Cattle and Grain and Vegetables.

 

[Fal Grunt]

Both Cleo45 and peterbats59 have provided a great lead into the point that I wanted to make. I will make a longer more detailed post separately from this thread.

These rifles seem to be a mix of supplier components. Possibly Fritz Werner, SIG, and FN, as well as some domestic production of parts, specifically the stocks. It could be arguable that these rifles, and the subsequent components, could be the result of a rebuild campaign later in their use. However I suspect that these rifles are original. This means that these rifles were built from parts supplied by other sources and not domestically produced.

DocAv, the Mexican Mauser rifles (1902/1910/1936) are essentially a 1895 with a 98 bolt, however a transitional early 98 style bolt, that is small gas vents, and the firing pin does not have the interlocking lugs with cam angles. The cocking piece also has the early V at the cocking cam protrusion.

Mexico had previously bought the so called 1895 from DWM, which was actually a 1893 design if I understand correctly (square bolt face). Based on the primary sources I have available, Mexico was looking for weapons in 1901/1902 and with the Chilean contract winding down, I suspect that DWM offered, or it was requested, a rifle that used the same barrels, sights, stocks as their previous rifles.

I will hopefully get the rest of the rifles posted up in the following days. I would be VERY interested in anyone has any other years production.

 

[peterbats59]

General Mondragón did use one part of the earlier DWM-produced M1895 rifle, particularly the ladder sight and slide, on the M1908 semi-automatic rifle. I have assumed that he wanted to use the same sight that Mexican troops were already familiar with. Also, the M1908 has narrow sling loops designed to accept the approximately 1-inch wide sling for the hugely successful DWM-produced Spanish M1898 Mauser (adopted by the Germans as the Gewehr 98), rather than the wider slings used by any other rifles then produced by SIG Neuhausen (mainly Mannlicher M1893 Carbines) or any other Swiss rifles, for that matter. The slings for the Schmidt-Rubin M1889 rifle and Schmidt-Rubin M1905 Cavalry Carbine are too wide, and the Mondragón M1908 predated the Schmidt-Rubin M1911/K11.

I don't think SIG Neuhausen ever made barrels for DWM. Fal Grunt is possibly suggesting that the barrel on the pictured Mexican Mauser could have been produced by DWM and, if that is right, then the inspector who placed that unique mark on the barrel was likely working at DWM at the time. This doesn't really solve the mystery of exactly who that person was. Was he a free-lance European (possibly German) armorer/inspector of sorts who was again commissioned by the Mexican Government to inspect barrels destined for the Mexican Mauser M1910? Or was he a Mexican armorer living in Europe and doing inspections whenever and wherever required for his government employer? Does anyone see that particular inspector's mark on any other Mauser that was absolutely, positively manufactured by and at DWM but not for Mexico?

 

[Fal Grunt]

I don't think SIG Neuhausen ever made barrels for DWM. Fal Grunt is possibly suggesting that the barrel on the pictured Mexican Mauser could have been produced by DWM and, if that is right, then the inspector who placed that unique mark on the barrel was likely working at DWM at the time. This doesn't really solve the mystery of exactly who that person was. Was he a free-lance European (possibly German) armorer/inspector of sorts who was again commissioned by the Mexican Government to inspect barrels destined for the Mexican Mauser M1910? Or was he a Mexican armorer living in Europe and doing inspections whenever and wherever required for his government employer? Does anyone see that particular inspector's mark on any other Mauser that was absolutely, positively manufactured by and at DWM but not for Mexico?

That is not what I meant, let me clarify.

Mexico ordered a batch of rifles in 1902 from DWM. From that point on, they endeavored to domestically produce their own rifles. Mexico did not have the means to do so. Someone produced the parts for them. Mexico has a long history of assembling “parts kits” into rifles.

The Models 1910 and 1936 have always been considered as “Made in Mexico”. I am saying that the parts were not made in Mexico, they were to some degree completed or assembled in Mexico.

I am saying that SIG provided barrels to Mexico. Anymore than that and we don’t have a connection. Could SIG have made the receivers or bolts? Possibly. Fritz Werner could have. FN could have.

In regards to the mark, and the inspector, I have not seen this mark before on any other Mauser rifle. However I do not own a complete original Mexican 1902 produced by DWM. It is more likely that the acceptance mark was applied by a hired inspector, in the limited documentation I have looked at so far, I haven’t found any reference to someone from the commission traveling to Europe for the 1902 contract.

 

[Fal Grunt]

The next step in identifying who was involved I think will be this mark:

 

[peterbats59]

Understood. Perhaps SIG did make that barrel for Mexico, I can't say either way. What I call "the heart mark" is on no other SIG made rifle or part, though -- only your barrel and the Mondragon parts made for Mexico, as far as I know. I am not aware of any documentation of the Mexico-SIG contract for the Mondragon rifles, either -- I was hoping that the contract would specify the detailed inspection requirements including where and by whom. No dice, to date. It is really an interesting puzzle -- your barrel is the only non-Mondragon part I've seen with the heart mark. If other Mexican M1910 rifles also have it on the barrel, or anywhere else for that matter, would be very interesting to know.

 

[Sir Peanut]

While I do not own any Mexican Model 1910 rifles, I do own a matching Model 1902 rifle. I have done a little casual investigation into the markings found on these rifles and have noticed some 1910 rifles with the same markings in the same places as my 1902, notably the following 'clover' marking on the trigger guard:

But, this same clover marking has been observed on the receiver near the serial number on at least one (I'm going off of memory here) 1910.

Given this, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Model 1910 rifles were build using parts cannibalized from Model 1902 rifles, or maybe some 1902 rifles were rebuilt as 1910s.

 

[Fal Grunt]

If you’d be willing to do a detailed posting of your 1902, that would be great. Maybe in another thread? And we can invite anyone else with an original matching 1902 to contribute.

The “clover” is a known DWM part acceptance mark.

It has been discussed previously that one option may be that 1902 rifles were recycled in building 1910 rifles, or potentially 1936 rifles. I think this is entirely possible given other examples from other countries that went through repeated rebuilds. Argentina and Chile immediately come to mind.

 

[Sir Peanut]

Yes, I would be happy to create a thread for 1902 rifles.

 

[scandiknivars]

I'll have to see if I can dig out my M1936. Hopefully it's not in secure storage. A similar post on those for comparison would be good. If someone wants to start a thread please do. I don't have detailed photos of my M1936 and with failing eyes sight it might take me awhile to take some.
Regards
Dan

 

[copperlake]

FWIW I have three actions, two 1931 and one 1933. All have the PV mark and all have the initials L. J. One has an 'N' inside a square. Also, Chilean '95's are shorter LOA. The ring on the Mexican is longer. I can see some tooling being the same but they really are different in many ways. I believe that they could have only started with a raw forging of a '95 receiver and nothing past that.

 

[DB404]

Mexican 1910 model 98s are true model 98 Mausers, complete with the 3rd safety lug. They’re just smaller. Porfiro Diaz, the last dictator of Mexico, like most dictators around the world in the very early 1900s, realized that he needed to move away from an agrarian society. Part of his plan was to have Mexico be independent of foreign countries to supply it with arms. He orderd that a steel smelter was to be constructed at Veracruz, one which produced “modern steel, the equal of the finest steels in the world”. Production was to be earmarked for the 1910 Mexican Mauser. The project didn’t get off the ground while Diaz was still around. Eventually, quite a few were turned out.
Larry Brace once told me that they were his favorite action to build custom rifles on. The trigger guard on the 1910 has just two holes attaching it to the action, as does the G33/40, which saves a lot of welding time filling the keeper screw hole as is found on 98Ks and such. Larry also said he always had them re heat treated. I forgot to add that for a couple of years at gunshows in El Paso, TX, a handsome tabletop plaque was for sale for a couple hundred bucks. It had been awarded to a Colonel in the Mexican Army for all of his work and dedication on the 1910 Mauser project.

The 1936 Mexican Mauser and the 1954 Mexican Mauser were essentially 1910s - the 1936 was shortened from a 29” barrel to 24” barrel, given a pistol grip stock and a cocking knob similar to a 1903 Springfield. Its bolt fits in the 1910 and vice versa, just fine. The 1954 was either rebarreled or rebored (I’ve never examined one) and the action was opened up a bit to accept US GI 30-06 ammo.
All the best - Dave

 

[DB404]

The 1910 and 1936 Mexican Mausers were produced at facilities in Mexico city, hence the Mexico D.F. In the crest (Federal District of Mexico, it is equivalent to the U.S. District of Columbia).

Diaz was removed as head of the government in 1911, so he could no longer shepherd the 1910 project. The steel produced at the new smelter in Veracruz had been earmarked for production of the 1910 and was to be the smelter’s first priority; I have no idea if that was carried out. The design appears to have been a DWM effort for Mexico, the 1902 DWM, with the action essentially being the Gewehr 98 small ring Mauser. The Mexican 1910 was a domestically produced copy of the DWM 1902.

Production was uneven due to the revolution, which lasted 10 years. As the Spanish revolution cranked up, the left leaning Mexican government produced a large run of new 1910s for the Socialist side in the civil war. Reportedly they performed well and were well liked by the Spaniards. These rifles were supplied free to Spain according to some sources; I find that hard to swallow given the state of the Mexican economy at the time. However, if Standard Oil was pumping Mexican oil at that time, possibly. More likely Russian money.

In the early 1960s Sam Cummings of Interarmco was able to acquire all of these rifles and parts from Francisco Franco, who, after wining the Spanish Civil War, collected all of the 1910s from the socialists and ran them through his arsenals for inspection and repair, doing a good job I might add, in preparation for storage.

I cannot comment on proof mark and inspection mark variation, other than to add that there were possibly two government manufacturers of the 1910 in Meico City. I do not know which arsenals were used in Spain to inspect and repair them. Many actions are seen which were rode hard and put away wet. The key to their usability is their headspace. Poorer countries tend to have soldiers from rural areas with minimal reading and limited mechanical skills. The rifles may have been paraded hard, but not fired a lot. I don’t know - that’s pure speculation on my part.

All the best
Dave

 

[655mauser]

Cool..I lucked into a 'rough' one on the cheap that cleaned up very well. It was just missing the bolt.