I get to learn somethng new today. Thanks, Nick. Now, any idea who the Belgians made these for? Or for the 'export market' in general?

 

... any idea who the Belgians made these for? Or for the 'export market' in general?

Good question. John Wall helped with that by pointing at the book "Ordnance Went Up Front" where Roy Dunlap, an armorer, describes the gun among the captured from the Germans weapons. So its battle history is a fact. But who was the client? My logic is the following:

• A country where 8x57 is a main cartridge.
• A country where 8x50R (Patrone 93) is not the main cartridge.
• A country that ended with a significant amount of free M.88's and M.90's (captured or reparation guns)

Greece was suggested by W.H.B. Smith, but it doesn't satisfy the above conditions. The only country that fits the description is Yugoslavia.

We don't know how many 88/24's were made. One of mine has a SN is below 1,000, the other is above 2,000. Can anyone report their serial numbers?

 

If post-1918, then the Chinese war lord market...

 

TP,
That is is a good question. The Belgians made and converted (?) many low end military rifles for sale in the late 30's for customers around the world. These rebuilt hybrid short rifles somehow fell into British hands in 1941 and 5,000 were provided as aid the Greeks (see Sazaidis) in 1941. Somehow, many, perhaps still in Greek hands, ended up in North Aftrica where a number were captured by the Axis. (There were Greek units in North Africa who initially did not perform well according to Sazanidis, perhaps account for loss of some these rifles? ) Some were later recaptured by the British 8th Army and inspected, repaired as needed and cleaned. (See "Ordnance Went Up Front). I was given one of these in 1951 by an uncle who was Master Sgt with Patton's Quartermaster staff. He told me (6 years after the war ended) that the rifle was Greek and was captured in North Africa.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it....or is it the other way around?
Regards,
John

 

... 5,000 were provided as aid the Greeks (see Sazaidis) in 1941.

Hm... must have missed this. I have "The Arms of the Hellenes" - where is this model described, John? I will take the book to my Greek friends for a detailed translation.

 

Hi Nick,
There are virtually no arms adequately described at all in the English summary of "Arms of the Helles", but there is mention of these, although not by any model number. I'll get the page number from the English summary when I get home and post it.
Regards,
John

 

what about china? they were using 8x57 as one of their main cartridges, they wanted arms, and they were not looking for expensive rifles.

 

Belgium, in the early 1920s, was refurbishing and converting to 7,9mm a lot of "Foreign rifles" for Sales to China ( I have several Gew98s from China with "Balle Blindee" and other Belgian (ELG) proof markings). There is also some credence in the fact that Belgium had large numbers of M91 Mosins which were converted to 7,9, either by Venus-Werke (1917) for Turkey, or by the Belgians themselves ( also for China...even though China had acquired large quantites of MN 91s from the new Soviet Russia, the design was accepted also in 7,9mm by some warlords, who already had Mausers ...

( which brings up the story of a Gun-runner scam involving MN rifles, the wrong ammo, and missing ( delayed) Bolts ( which way I can't remember)...The Chinese Warlord eventually got the Rifles, the bolts and the correct ammo, and the Gun-runner was fished out of the Huang-Pu River at Shanghai, minus his windpipe. ( and his money).)

The Belgians would have had access to quantities of MN rear sights of the old style, and many other various spares from all sorts of rifles; as they also used early style GEW 98 Trigger guards ( locking screw within Kingscrew head) for some of the China export refurb 98s ( I have two fitted with such). SO 1920s Liege was a thriving workshop of Milsurp refurbishment.
As mentioned, many "new" countries were clamouring for 7,9mm calibre rifles; Greece was one, as were Ethiopia and China. The Rifles could have been part of a "Greek" supply, early in the 1930s, along with the FN30 Mausers; or it could be that they were captured by the Germans ( either in Belgium, Greece or even Yugoslavia) subsequently captured by the British (where?) and issued to Greek troops which had escaped the German-Italian invasion of Greece and were fighting in North Africa?
Ethiopia seems unlikely a destination, as Italian use of the M95 and M88/90 ( all 8x50R) in the AOI makes no mention of captured
7,9 M88/24s at all (but then the variety of rifles used by the Abyssinians was mind-blowing).

Can the M88/24 rifles be dated by the Belgian proof and inspection marks which are quite evident???. Remember that Belgium also assembled "M94/24s", similar to the Yugo "M95.M" of domestic Yugo conversion.

Another Mystery awaiting a solution.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

 

... Remember that Belgium also assembled "M94/24s", similar to the Yugo "M95.M" of domestic Yugo conversion.

No, M.95/24 is Yugoslavian without any doubt. It has absolutely the same marks as M.95M, with the same Cyrillic letters. I have compared them side-by-side and can attest to that.

 

The reference to these rifles in Sazanidis is on page 557 in the Engliish Summary, column one, section D, "Up to the Fall of Crete, October, 1940 - May, 1941" in which Sazanidis lists the inventory of arms available to the Greek Army during that period. In the first paragraph, he lists arms received from Great Britain in or after January 1941. After many appeals, the British Goverment sent the Greeks some older machine guns, some Thompson sub machineguns and a paltry amount of ammunition. There are no rifles in the list except for "5,000 7.92 Mannlicher rifles". This is the only evidence ever to appear to my knowledge that the Greeks used rifles of this type of rifle, and to me substantially connects the dots to Greek use and ownership of of converted M1888's and the written (W.H.B. Smith etc) and verbal claims that the Greek Army used these, especially in North Africa. Maybe one day a photo or two will turn up on eBay showing their use by Greek troops?
Regards,
John

 

Nick,
In the photos of the barrel markings you posted above, I'm not quite sure of the Liege proof house controlleur's mark. That is the mark to the right of the "crown-over-R". It's the mark consisting of a single capital letter with a star over it. On your rifles it looks like a "star-over-R" or a "start'over-X" or maybe a "K"? Could you check and post the correct answer?

Also, are your stocks numbered?
Many thanks!
Regards,
John

 

Thanks, John. I remember that line, but he only states "Mannlicher" without a model - and then with a question mark after it. On pages 218 & 219 Sazanidis writes about Mannlicher 1895 from Bulgaria, among which he lists ΥΠΟΔ 1895/24, 7,92 χιλ (M95/24 in 7.92 mm) - which I seriously doubt came from Bulgaria.

Here are close-ups of the marks on both Belgian Mannlichers:

 

Nick,
What is the entry on pages 218-219? Isn't that where he simply lists rifles by model and their charactertics? Is there any information there of a historical nature? I have all the pages after 219. Regarding the question mark, I take that to indicate someone's questioning of the caliber "7.92" who thought it should have been 8 mm Mannlicher instead of 8 mm Mauser. I think it is important that there are no M95/24's entered in any Greek Army arms inventory in the English summaries, except for these 5,000 rifles from England. Did you notice the Greek language chart on page 509? In wonder what the third entry in the first section is? It may be the same 5,000 Belgian conversions.

Thanks for the pictures of the Liege proof marks. According to Bruno Joos Der Ter Beerst's book on Belgium firearms markings, the "star-overX" controleur's mark belonged to Alfred Regnier who worked at the Liege Proof House from 1937 to 1964.
Best Regards,
John

 

Thank you, John!

1937 and on? Hmm... kinda late....

Here are pages 218 & 219, they have information about the rifles taken from Bulgaria. There is something about the modification to 7.92 on page 220 (at the very end) and page 221. I will take the book with me to church and see if any of my Greek friends can translate the text. I mean - they can certainly translate, but almost no one knows the military terminology except for one guy who has served in the military.

 

I checked Sazanidis' bibliography where I remembered he quoted the venerable W.H.B. Smith and his "Book of Rifles". Here we have a full circle as I believe Sazanidis quoted W.H.B. Smith, who wrote the following regarding the 7.92 mm M.88 conversion:

He also wrote that M.95/24 is Greek, but we know it ain't Greek, it's Yugoslavian:

 

I had a friend of mine translate parts of Sazanidis' book where Mannlicher in 7.92 is mentioned.

On p. 219, last paragraph of the first column, the author claims that Mannlicher M.95/24 was created in (or for) Bulgaria at the end of WWI (First World War) so that the Bulgarians could use the German 7,92 mm cartridges. (Well, we know this is not true.)

On pages 220 and 221 he reasons why Greece can not be the country that ordered the 7.92 mm modification. Here is the exact translation of this excerpt:

"A second point that has to be clarified is the information written in foreign books that Greece after WWI acquired a number of 8 mm Mannlicher rifles from the dissolved Austro-Hungarian empire as war reparations, which in 1924 Greece had them converted to 7.92 mm in Belgium. The inaccuracy here is obvious considering that in 1924 Greece had not adopted the 7.92 mm cartridge and accordingly had no reason to perform the caliber change attributed to Greece. On the contrary, if Greece had received 8 mm Austrian weapons it would have had every reason to keep them as they were, given that Greece already had Bulgarian weapons in the same caliber for which EEPK manufactured 8-mm Mannlicher cartridges. At the same time neighboring countries such as Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, who had adopted the 7.92 mm cartridge, had interest in such conversion. So, under the logic that in the Balkans facts that take place in some countries relate to all the countries in the region, Greece was included in this list without this being true, though. Moreover, it has not been proven conclusively whether Greece received as war reparations any Austrian 8 mm Mannlicher rifles. From all Greek literature and from comparison of related numbers, the conclusion that Greece acquired these weapons cannot be drawn with any certainty. In any case the issue remains open with the most probable version being that Greece did not receive 8 mm Mannlichers after WWI as war reparations."

The last translation is of the headers of the table on p. 509 where 5,000 Mannlichers are mentioned, the caliber of 7.92 mm being questioned on p. 557. The headers of the last four columns are: Captured (δ) Purchased from Abroad (ε), Issued (στ) and Total (ζ). Item 3 is Rifle Mannlicher of 7,92 mm.

In short, Dr. Sazanidis seriously doubts Greece ever ordering a 7.92 mm Mannlicher conversion, questions the caliber of the 5,000 Mannlichers purchased abroad at the beginning of WWII and doesn't specify the model of these 5,000 Mannlicher rifles.

 

Hi Nick,
Many thanks for getting this interesting section translated and for posting it here. I have no doubt that Sazanidis is 100% correct. Greece did not order these weapons abroad and they never had old M88 Mannlichers to convert. Certainly not in 1924!

Rather than being "ordered abroad", the Greeks received these rifles simply because they pleaded with the world for military aid while being overrun by the Wehrmacht. As Sazanidis points out, only Great Britain responded to with arms. As a result, the Greeks got these rifles, (and many other arms) which they accepted. Not surprising also because the rifles were made in 7.92mm which the Greeks had adopted in the late 1930's as their new service cartridge....which per chance is the time frame when these 5,000 were re-manufactured in Belgium. I have no doubt that in normal times, the Greek Army would never have looked twice at these rifles. As it is, given that so many of these rifles originated in North Africa where the British formed two Brigades of Greek infantry, I am confident that the rifles did not arrive in time to see combat in Greece or Crete.
Regards,
John

 

Who knows what model these 5,000 Mannlichers were... even the caliber is questioned. I would like them to be my Belgian, though.

...only Great Britain responded to with arms.

When WWII started Turkey sold back to Greece the arms they captured during the Asia Minor campaign in 1921-23. What an irony...

 

Nick,
I just remembered that my copy of the Wehrmacht's foreign ordnance logistics (D 50/1 series) technical manual, the "Kennblatter fremden Gerats", has a chapter in it on Greece! And guess what? In 1941, when they inventoried Greek small arms, the Germans found Steyr M.95 long rifles and carbines in 8x50R in the mix! Even more important, they also found Yugoslav M95M's in use in Greece..which they inventoried and cataloged as the "Mannlicher M95/24". Importantly, the German text indicates the the M95/24's came from Yugoslavia, without any mention of Bulgarian origins. I think we've found the source of the statements in foreign sources that Sazanidis mentions, and it looks like they may have been right all along.

The Steyr M95 long rifle is cataloged as the Gewehr 306 (g). The M.95 carbine is cataloged as the Karabiner 505 (g), and the "Mannlicher 95/24" is cataloged as the Karabiner 494 (g). The "g" in all cases stands for "Griechenland", or Greece. The pages on my manual are all dated December 1, 1941.

I think I'll take a breather while I think about this. The first question that came to mind however was how did these three M95 variations get to Greece? Perhaos from their neighbor, Yugoslavia, to blunt Italian aggression?
Regards,
John

 

Getting back to the 5000 Belgian Converted M88/24 rifles given by the British to The Greek units in North Africa...could these have been in storage in the hands of a British Dealer, who had acquired them in 1937-39 ( available dates for Inspection marks...probably for sale to some foreign buyer???? and then taken over by the British War Office as possible "War Stores"...in 1941, they found a use for them, and shipped them to North Africa for the Greek units there...ammo was not a problem, as the British used 7,9 in the AFV Besa Guns, and as the Africa Koprps was into the North Africa Fracas, substantial quantities of German 7,9 ammo was available as well.

Several British dealers from WW I to WWII had guns converted in Belgium for onward sales all over the world to small buyers. A Job-Lot of 5,000 Mannlicher rifles would seem to fit into this "small trade" description.

Maybe a research of the Public Records Office would show the origin of the Lot of Mannlichers, if they came from a Government "Take-over" of early 1939-40. Anybody for a Vacation in London?

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

 

Wow! I love this Thread. What great sources there are in Nick, DocAV and John Wall. How fortunate that they are able to translate or have access to translators and translations.

 

This is indeed a wonderful thread, and all who contributed to it, particularly Nick, its originator, deserve our many thanks and sincere appreciation. It demonstrates the difficulty of trying to assemble from fragmentary evidence the history of an obscure model. But that is what makes it fascinating and gives value to what collectors do.

To which I will add a couple more fragments. I have three M88/90s (or whatever they are), all OEWG. One is a rifle converted to a carbine, in 8x56, "S" marked and proofed in Wien in 1892, one of my favorite shooters. But the other two --both deactivated rifles, and both in 8x50, are the point of my post. One is an former AOI rifle (and so stamped), and the other bears Nepalese (?) numbers. The latter has abundant British-style markings on the right hand side of the buttstock, similar in pattern and content to those found on Canadian Ross rifles. I'll have dig it out and post the details, but there is no question in my mind that this rifle passed in some official way through British or at least Commonwealth government ownership.

I realize this does not explain how 7.92mm conversions found their way to North Africa, but if they were delivered to Greece before the German invasion in April 1941, they could have been seized en bloc and taken to Africa by the Italians themselves. It is not commonly recognized that after the fall of Greece, the Germans occupied only Athens and a few strategic areas; by and large most of Greece was occupied and administered by the Italians, and by the Bulgarians occupying their former lands in Thrace.

Yugoslav rifles found in Greece and later inventoried by the Germans were most likely carried there by Serbian soldiers who escaped southward over the mountains when the Germans invaded their homeland. The borders in that part of the Balkans are very porous, having shifted many times in the past century. The refugees found no safe haven, for within a few weeks Greece itself was invaded. Many Greek rifles turned up after WWII in Yugoslavia and Turkey, for much the same reasons.

Until somebody comes up with the documentary (or photographic) evidence of the actual issuance of any 7.92mm rifles to the Greek brigades formed in Egypt, at least for anything beyond training, I remain distrustful of that story.

M

 

Dear MG Mike,
the AOI rifles in 8x50R with funny markings were taken from Abyssinai in 1941, and given to India for trainign Rifles...the Indian Khirkee Arsenal made ( and still makes) 8x50R ammo from 1942-3 onwards... it is still a registrable Hunting calibre in India, in an SMLE based sporter made by the Indian Ordnance Board ( see their website).

A Lot of these rifles (M88s, M95s, ) ended up in states bordering India ( such as Nepal, Sikkim, Bhutan) hence the Sanskrit markings...also found there are VV 70/87 rifles as well.

Other destinations for AOI captured M95s were several British African colonies ( as "Police rifles"...since there was limited access to ammo, it was effective "Native Gun Control")..I have a M95 Stutzen which came "out of Africa" ( not Ethiopia) as a deact...several holes in barrel (under Woodwork) plus a plug welded in chamber...and sun burnt. hence the British type butt markings.

Another destination for AOI Carcanos was 10,000 rifles and carbines for the KNIL in 1941, via Australia ( which even tried to convert some to .303 for the KNIL...prototypes in Lithgow Museum.)..I have one of the M91s from KNIL/INA surplus..with an Indon-made KNIL M95 type stock, and a blacksmith made Triggerguard-mag assembly...but the rifle is definitely a Terni M91 Long.

LIbya still has loads of Carcanos (Newreel photos from recent days) left after 1943 North Africa Surrender at Tunis.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

 

I am not expert on this but from my serbian friend i know about bayonets M88/24 so i believe it could be done by FN for Yugoslavia? In Serbia and other parts of Austrian Ugrian empire part that was post 1918 part of new Yugoslavia probably remained a large numbers of M88 rifles, i believe the rifles could in WW2 with combat moved to Greece? This is only a theory but for me remains a Yugoslavia more real as Greece.

 

Just as a side note, I wouldn't have wanted to be issued one of these rifles, and I wouldn't feel safe trying to fire one now--7.9x57 and a wedge-lock bolt are not a good combination.

-Devo

 

..7.9x57 and a wedge-lock bolt are not a good combination.

Judging by the numerous proof marks they have been tested - successfully.

 

There is a German article from an unknown magazine where the Serbian connection is discussed. Note the special bayonet for the 7.92 mm M.88. Why? Why did they have to rework the bayonet when a simple offset of the upper band would have been sufficient for re-use of the existing M.88 & M.90 bayonets???

The pictures below show the poor fit of the original M.90 bayonet on the so-called M.88/24 - it doesn't go all the way to have the muzzle ring fully seated.

Top - M.88, bottom - M.88/24:

Right - M.88, left - M.88/24:

And here is what the German article shows as a proper M.88/24 bayonet:

 

hello i am new member from greece and all that stuff its interesting.
i have some info about the mannlicher 7.92mm. first of all the original mannlicher m88/90 and M95 in 8x50R were captured weapons from the bulgarians in 2nd balkan war and in WWI, used as rear echelon troops in WWI, and in asia minor campaign in 1919-1922. 16.000 long rifles and 700 carbines survive in greece inventory in 1940. from a history magazine in 2001 called military history for the greek-italian war, it lists numbers of inventory and for the 5.000 mannlicher of 7.92mm it states they were forwared first to the EEPK company for modifying their cartridge chamber, forwarding their cone of cartridge. as i understand it they legthened the chamber in the bullet. afterwards the rifles were farward to units. sazanidis in page 509 (i just read it on the thread i dont have the book yet) it refers the oficial army history directive publication were it lists that the 5.000 mannlicher were given all to units in front.
from that we have 2 questions

1) were those rifle send?
i think those rifles were partly or mostly given to new units created to back up the TSAM (army part easter macedonia) in greek-bulgaria borders part of it was the metaxa line forts, after the germany shows that would invade. greece on the begining had 50.000 rifles short becouse half of the FN M1930 order were not delivered and so it used in rear echelon troops with the best condition from old rifles, from previus wars captured. when it became evident the germany would invade, they decided to mobilize 3 more infantry divisions (to the original 17) so the plead for arms to the british was for the new units that created. so the germans captured that rifles from the TSAM units which were given the permmit by greek general command to surrender before the divisions in albania do so.

2) something its not right with the 7.92mm mannlichers, if they send to EEPK to make chamber lengthening then my best guess its they were not 7.92mm but of similar cartridge size that could be easy modified to shoot the 7.92. My guess is those were 8x56R modified mannlichers, that send to EEPK to lengethened their chamber to shoot the 7.92mm. if they were real 7.92 then no need of work on them, the army inventory had 7.92 cartridges and EEPK made them too, some millions of 7.92x57mm were manufactured during the war. EEPK also manufacture the 8x50R for the captured mannlichers in greek inventory, so also this caliber was not of the rifles send by the british. So we end up with the most possible answer that they were 8x56R for which no cartridge stocks were available and were not manufactured by eny greek company.

sazanidis states that no mannlicher rifles were given as war reparation from austria. and i beleive also that no orders were given to belgium to convert old captured weapons to new calibers. greece were interested to efurbishing the mannlicher Shoenauer and all captured rifles would be used only as back ups in rear echelon troops, not all only those in good condition used with the stock of ammunition captured with them. in 1934-5 the turkish mausers (36.150 rifles and carbines in 7.65mm) were declared as obsolete and useles surplus material and planned to sold them for scrap. but with dificulties to buy new arms from foreign countries they were refurbished and repaired by the army inventory and new serial numbers were stambed on their stocks. they saw limited use in rear echelon troops in WWII.

ps if you want i can translate some pages you interested of sazanidis book

 

The Mannlicher 8x50R or 8x56R could be not changed into 7,92x57IS Mauser, as they are larger in diameter, so a new barell should be used, or some chamber plugins, but these would be not real by 5000 pcs.There is a theory about using of 1938 converted yugoslavian M95/24 rifles to 8x57IS,that could found their way to Greece?.

 

No one knows for sure, but the archives saying 5.000 mannlichers of 7.92mm (uknown type) they were send by the british during the war time, and before they were issued to troops they were send to EEPK company to lengthened their chamber, so i think this proves they were not really 7.92mm atleast not compatiple caliber with the FN Mauser M1930 the greek army used as their new service rifle (together with mannlicher M1903 6.5MS)

in some other thread in this forum sayed the austrians in WWI were shorten the chamber of captured mosin nagants to 50mm and they shoot with no problem 8x50R mannlicher rounds on their 7.62mm barels. really a 0.08mm its very small diference and maybe only of small amount of pressure lost by the smaller 7.92 bullet in the larger barel.

my theory its that they were really 8x56R a round the greek arsenal not have, so they just lengthened the chambers on the front side 1mm to get the 7.92x57mm even if that was meaned that becouse of larger barel they would be it innacurate in larger ranges but stil accepted on real battle ranges ie 100-300m. in eny way becouse of the greek arsenal had limited ammo in all wars of 20th century (most of times they were not more than 1.000 rounds available for every rifle) , the officers order the soldiers not to shoot in long distances were they had little chances of being hit enything. rutinely they ordered only some very good marksmen to shoot at greater distances wile the others shoot at closer ranges and well aimed to save ammo. the moto was not a single round lost!, a problem the italians didnt have most of time. so if fired a 7.92 round in 8mm barels the innacuracy would be not that terrible in close range and in war time it was accepted.

another theory its that the rifles caliber was the 7.92mm of the Gew 88 rifles and need to be worked in chamber to fired the 7.92 of the Gew 1898 round. (FN M1930 in greek inventory) i am not very well know the cartridge diferences between them. many sayed that those rifles were bought from belgium by the british.

 

The differences between the russian 7,62x54R abd 8x50R is not large, by some easy upgrades it could be done, mainly the case is very similar with Rand, the 8x57IS is total different and without rand same as have other dimmension on lower part, so the changing is not possible in simple way,mainly by rebarelling, like on M95M yugoslavian visible.The 8x57JS have higher pressures too as 8x50R and 8x56R. br.Andy