You're going to get a wide range of replies. Some you will like. Some you will not.
You aren't going to like my personal opinion. But you asked so brace yourself.
This is what I have done in the past so don't feel as though I'm singling you out.

If I were still in the market for a 2a/2a1, I would stop to look. But I would only look for a few seconds and would not ask if I could pick it up. I would pass and look elsewhere.
I might ask if you still had the original wood and metal though. If you answered yes, we might have a short chat. If it were included as a package and your price reflected a rifle which has been "kitchen tabled" so to speak.

It looks nice and your handiwork looks good. On that alone you might sell it at a fair price. Not likely you would be selling to me.
You gave a very honest description so I felt as though I should give you an honest opinion. My own personal opinion. Others will vary.

 

You're going to get a wide range of replies. Some you will like. Some you will not.
You aren't going to like my personal opinion. But you asked so brace yourself.
This is what I have done in the past so don't feel as though I'm singling you out.

If I were still in the market for a 2a/2a1, I would stop to look. But I would only look for a few seconds and would not ask if I could pick it up. I would pass and look elsewhere.
I might ask if you still had the original wood and metal though. If you answered yes, we might have a short chat if it were included as a package and your price reflected a rifle which has been "kitchen tabled" so to speak.

It looks nice and your handiwork looks good. On that alone you might sell it at a fair price. Not likely you would be selling to me.
You gave a very honest description so I felt as though I should give you an honest opinion. My own personal opinion. Others will vary.

I don't expect to take anyone's feedback in here as harsh criticism, so no harm, no foul there! I do still have the original wood, and for lack of anything better to do with it, I would likely include it with the rifle. The way I'm considering it, there's two kinds of folks who want Ishapore 2As. Those who want a Lee-Enfield chambered in .308/7.62x51, and those who collect Lee-Enfields, and need one to add to their collection. Of course these two types of people are not mutually exclusive, but I'd assume this handiwork does not appeal to the latter in any shape or form.

 

You replaced the wood, and refinished the wood. You’ve stripped off the original metal finish, and reparked it. And you’re about to spray paint the metal.

I’m in the same boat as JB White. I simply wouldn’t buy the gun. It looks like you wanted a pretty Enfield, and rather than buying one, you bought a worn one and dumped a bunch of money and labor into it. At this point it’s like a Mitchell’s K98 or a Miltech garand, in that it appeals to an entirely different section of the market, someone who values looks over originality. There’s a market for that, of course, but it’s not the high end collector who will throw money at something.

Gunbroker may realize you a return of some sort, but I think you’ll be underwater overall.

 

Yeah that's absolutely fair. I have owned this rifle for a few years now, and just bought the first one I found in months of looking locally... Just turned out to be a worn one, which I got for a very fair price comparatively. The original wood (especially the stock and upper handguards) are all soaked through with oil, and any method of restoration would be nothing short of a full strip, so I opted to lift & shift instead. As for the spray paint, I've had the can in a closet for 6 months now and probably won't ever actually use it.

 

Butt-ugly original -or- cleaned up pretty.

I'd go with the latter.

The value to you is what matters.

Conelrad

 

Threads like this are useful reads for newer collectors. I'm a collector and, were I looking for a 2A1, the "before" cosmetic condition of this rifle wouldn't have put me off for a second. In fact, I like the look of it- pretty much about the same state as my own 2A1. I have mixed feelings about "restoration" of collector guns. If you have a Brown Bess with stock split in half that should be restored- by someone who is an expert at it. Worn appearing Lee Enfields I don't "restore other than to return a rifle to shootable condition if it's a year/ version/ price level that places it in the "likely to be taken to the range" category. So, with this rifle I might have stabilized any wood issues and redone the draws (if necessary). I'm also into shooting a good part of my collection and I tend to avoid LE's that have obvious user replaced forends. Many are done very poorly and have neither value as a collectible or a shooter. The simple truth is- in collecting, it's always best to leave them alone, if at all possible, and originality always trumps cosmetics. For a pure range gun, with associated loss of collectible status, the sky's the limit but it has to be accurate. In the Canadian market most guys looking for a 2A1 aren't really "collectors" and simply want a LE that doesn't use .303 and many would likely jump at your redone rifle.

Ruprecht

 

Threads like this are useful reads for newer collectors. I'm a collector and, were I looking for a 2A1, the "before" cosmetic condition of this rifle wouldn't have put me off for a second. In fact, I like the look of it- pretty much about the same state as my own 2A1. I have mixed feelings about "restoration" of collector guns. If you have a Brown Bess with stock split in half that should be restored- by someone who is an expert at it. Worn appearing Lee Enfields I don't "restore other than to return a rifle to shootable condition if it's a year/ version/ price level that places it in the "likely to be taken to the range" category. So, with this rifle I might have stabilized any wood issues and redone the draws (if necessary). I'm also into shooting a good part of my collection and I tend to avoid LE's that have obvious user replaced forends. Many are done very poorly and have neither value as a collectible or a shooter. The simple truth is- in collecting, it's always best to leave them alone, if at all possible, and originality always trumps cosmetics. For a pure range gun, with associated loss of collectible status, the sky's the limit but it has to be accurate. In the Canadian market most guys looking for a 2A1 aren't really "collectors" and simply want a LE that doesn't use .303 and many would likely jump at your redone rifle.

Ruprecht

Thank you for your input! When I first got the rifle the faults in the wood weren't very apparent, and I did try to stop further damage, but the wood wouldn't accept wood glue due to being saturated. What I need to better understand is when collecting an Ishapore, is the black paint considered "original"? Numerous sources during my research stated if the black paint is Suncorite that IS the finish, whereas most 2A/2A1s were given a layer of black paint as storage protection. Since I was able to remove this paint and there is a nicely parkerized finish underneath it clearly wasn't Suncorite.

 

Well, where is the line drawn as to this particular example? We collectors are a funny bunch. Original condition in all respects is the boss, no matter if one collects milsurps, Winchesters, Colts, Mausers, Parkers, Krags, etc etc. Some will only go for the pristine while others (most of the rest of us) honor and value the wear and tear of an honest life as a useful tool that was/is doing what it was made to do in the first place. But when it comes to an example that is in the state that yours was found in and its integrity as a working firearm has been reduced to that as a tomato stake, some common sense must be entertained. Its value to you is treasure and time invested. It's value the the next owner is what he will pay.
For the record I think your rifle looks great now. As for the folks who have never made an improvement, restoration, salvage, parts replacement, refinish to look original, etc, etc, raise your hand because then I can personally honor your forbearance and honesty. I, for one, cannot raise mine very high because 50+ years ago things were not the same and the 2A/2A1's were still serving. And it is your rifle after all.

 

Thunderation !! , what a beat down ! You guys need to get consistent...you applaud restorations of sporters but here you drop like a B52 strike on a guy who takes a 2A and salvages it from the decay of miserable wood.

I think a spasm of Purist virus hit you guys !!

To the owner of this rifle:

a. No decline in value, cut down 2a Into Fantasy Jungle Carbines or Navy Arms / Gibbs Rife Company "Quest" survival rifles are movers on retail market in the $500 so this rifle will clearly bring same or more in the repaired condition it is presently in.

b. Nice work on the rifle. Its been saved from decay and is now serviceable.

c. You saved a rifle from problematic condition and since you don't collect relics, you have nothing
to be concerned about whatsoever. There are guys who run a museum so a decaying rifle is sacred
but who cares what they think ....its your rifle and you brought it from the dead.

The fact is some rifles need attention if they are to survive being shootable rifles. Time marches on, own a relic or do something to keep a rifle serviceable. No...its not correct as it left Ishaphore but since you are not a Ishaphore purist, it matters not.

Sometimes the reality must be flagged: Not all of us are archaeologists of Enfields, not museum curators, we only want to repair and put right a rifle needing maintenance and attention. We don't wish to wall hang the rifle,
we want to put it operational and shoot it.

Ain't a damned thing wrong with this rifle being cared for and put back on firing line.

 

Thunderation !! , what a beat down ! You guys need to get consistent...you applaud restorations of sporters but here you drop like a B52 strike on a guy who takes a 2A and salvages it from the decay of miserable wood.

I think a spasm of Purist virus hit you guys !!

To the owner of this rifle:

a. No decline in value, cut down 2a Into Fantasy Jungle Carbines or Navy Arms / Gibbs Rife Company "Quest" survival rifles are movers on retail market in the $500 so this rifle will clearly bring same or more in the repaired condition it is presently in.

b. Nice work on the rifle. Its been saved from decay and is now serviceable.

c. You saved a rifle from problematic condition and since you don't collect relics, you have nothing
to be concerned about whatsoever. There are guys who run a museum so a decaying rifle is sacred
but who cares what they think ....its your rifle and you brought it from the dead.

The fact is some rifles need attention if they are to survive being shootable rifles. Time marches on, own a relic or do something to keep a rifle serviceable. No...its not correct as it left Ishaphore but since you are not a Ishaphore purist, it matters not.

Sometimes the reality must be flagged: Not all of us are archaeologists of Enfields, not museum curators, we only want to repair and put right a rifle needing maintenance and attention. We don't wish to wall hang the rifle,
we want to put it operational and shoot it.

Ain't a damned thing wrong with this rifle being cared for and put back on firing line.

Damn that is good. I have to agree completely in this case. (Holy crap, what did I just say).

I would not be surprised that some significant money would be sent your way to purchase that rifle, particularly in these crazy times. It is something to sit down at the bench with and send them downrange.......probably pretty accurately. Sometimes no matter how hard you try you can't spit shine fecal matter and you just go onto plan B.

 

Okay while I am on a roll: When these 2A & 2A1 came in, I was a FFL and went thru piles of them to extract the few in good working order....not suffering decaying wood ruined by being oil soaked and neglected. In sum, most all rifles had ruined wood . Now they all sold as we see them pop up all the time but none in that condition ever made it to our shop. We'd have none of that garbage condition and the resulting customer issues coming back to haunt us. Most all rifles were craptacular at best. Few of these rifles were in great condition but all had some issues with paint flaking off metal , some rifles showed blue or park surface treatments under the flaking paint. Those were the rifles we bought..if wood up to par.

We were in business, we were not running a museum. We knew a 762 caliber surplus rifle was a hot ticket item as this caliber was much loved by customers. These rifles would fly out the door but not with paint falling like snow off them We simply degreased the barreled actions, brushed then with brake fluid which mildly made paint removal with a paper towel and reassembled the rifles. Two patches down bores to remove grease and up for sale. They fly out the door. The dang paint was going to flake off anyway so no harm done.

** Martin O8 is mourning the loss of all that grease ...Ishaphore grease from all those 2A's . Like the oils they bathed Pharaohs in Egypt before mummy wrapping, the Ishaphore grease once gone can't be
duplicated. Oh............... the Inhumanity of it all !!!!

 

As much as I don't want to say it, people would probably throw stupid money at it nowadays.

Regardless of my own opinion........

at least put a correct buttstock on it.

 

As much as I don't want to say it, people would probably throw stupid money at it nowadays.

Regardless of my own opinion........

at least put a correct buttstock on it.

The DOG is suffering the Ishaphore virus today.

 

An original will go for $450-550? Maybe a bit higher because it’s a 2A rather than the 2A1. At least pre-covid panic craziness.

I’d feel yours would fetch around the same. The buyer won’t be a collector for sure, but there’s a lot of shooters and other gun guys who can appreciate a good looking milsurp, and even more, one that’s factory chambered in a relatively available and affordable round. I bet if you throw it up on gunbroker for $600 somebody would snap it up fast and have not a care that it wasn’t original.

Last year I sold a completely refinished SMLE. Obviously not my handiwork. It was pretty but it had been extensively sanded and the stock was glossy. Full disclosure of non originality was made and the darned thing still brought $850 to a buyer who was tickled pink. People are nuts. I just hope word doesn’t get out or bubba will stop cutting the barrels down for deer guns and break out the stock refinishing supplies instead.

 

Also: there aren’t many people collecting anything from India for the history. They buy these guns more as shooters. That may change over time but I’d wager the number of guys who want their post-1948 Enfield No. 1 mk3*s and 2A/2A1s as a fine relic of early Indian Independence gun craftsmanship, vs the ones who just want an Enfield that they don’t feel bad about practicing their hot mad minute skillz with... is minuscule.

 

Yup all 3 guys on the planet who covet early Indian Independence gun craftsmanship ...okay I stretched the truth on that, all 2 guys in reality. LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And now there is only one.

He found out the hard way that after independence the Ishapore factory changed the steel specification** on the No1's such that they failed the proof tests, so rather than lose face and revert back to the British specified grades of steel, they changed the test specification so that they passed.

** Its true - Source :

Extract from “Gun Digest 33rd Anniversary 1979 Deluxe Edition”

Article Author : Mr A G Harrison

Qualification : Former ‘Proof Master’ of the ‘Rifle Factory Proof House, Ishapore, India’


If anyone wants to see the article I can post it.

 

Whats a matter Alan, that big Ishy screw staked thru the fore end not Cricket Enough ? LOL....Seriously, post Independence rifles never impressed me but a early 30's era Ishaphore No.1MkIII is something I'd not walk away from. Maybe today the Indian arms industry has come of age, others here will have to weigh in on that. I do believe
things slide downhill after Ishaphore left British supervision.

 

Maybe not straight downhill but sideways anyway?

 

I know of one damned fine shooter who got a 2A1 and the bolt whipped back into his face upon firing 10 years ago. This being the only incident about safety I've direct knowledge of concerning these Indian rifles. However, the credibility of this shooter is such, I no longer will fire my 2A1 which is the best of a ton of them I pawed through years ago. I lost confidence in any 2A1 and because of that , I won't sell the nice one that I own because I don't trust it and won't pass along a Possible safety risk to anyone. Its my only wall hanger so I guess it makes me an Enfield Collector ..LOL.

 

I know of one damned fine shooter who got a 2A1 and the bolt whipped back into his face upon firing 10 years ago. This being the only incident about safety I've direct knowledge of concerning these Indian rifles.

milprileb: In 15 years of collecting them I've never seen one verifiable instance of any LE (any model) failing catastrophically unless being used with improper ammunition. Do you have any added detail about this occurrence? It would seem to require both bolt lugs shearing off completely. I'm interested because I have never used my 2A1 at the range being a bit nervous due to interweb chatter about them.

Ruprecht

 

Everyone can just send me their Ishapores, it'll be fine. They're all explody junk anyways.

 

Never say Never ...I posted the incident on this thread. That said, as stated, its the only incident
I am aware of. Nevertheless, my enthusiasm to shoot my 2A1 is nil. Choice is a wonderful thing?

 

Here for Ruprecht is the reply of my shooting buddy regarding 2A failure:

"I don't post on many forums anymore, but feel free to pass this along.

The incident in question was when I used a hand load with Federal brass that probably shouldn't have been reloaded more than a couple times, but was. The primer pocket failed and I had a blowout. The bolt lifted and came back, taking some skin off the top of my thumb where my hand was grasping the stock's wrist. I also caught a jet of gas to the face, but was thankfully wearing safety glasses (which are pitted to this day!). The rifle itself seemed to be fine, as I shot it plenty after that, without issue, before eventually selling it. I have no idea how it came out of battery. Very strange, indeed. "

 

It sounds like the little "nub" on the raceways under the bolt was chipped or broken to me?

 

milprileb: Thanks very much for taking the time to post the extra info. Clearly not a "catastrophic failure" but still very interesting that gas blowing back could rotate and unlock the bolt. Sitting here looking at my Skeleton No. 4 and trying to understand how that would happen and the only thing that occurs to me is that the long right hand bolt lug might be lifted by escaping gas. However it worked, sounds like chamber pressure was already low enough to not wreck then gun or cause serious injury. Regards.

Ruprecht

 

Rup,

It appears to be a fluke situation. Thanks for your interest in safety.