TK is known for having light mums, especially on their later rifles. I cannot pass judgement on this as it’s either a light stamping or a damn good fake…I’d have to feel the mum and “99 Type” stamps…and that looks painted on. Best bet is to take calipers and see if the top/bottom diameter matches side/side.

As a FYI, your rifle was discussed in an earlier post about laser engraved mums, see one of the last posts in the thread below.

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/type-99-with-laser-reapplied-mum.1274069/page-2

If you search, there are a few other fake mum discussions.

 

Thanks! Wow. That is a tough pill to swallow - just found these threads and forum the day after purchasing it. It is a lovely rifle. But still... if only I had seen that beforehand. I feel kinda dumb now. Oh well, future collector me is now even better prepared.

 

Easiest way to tell for sure would be to remove the white filament and take some pictures then. It's a common trick used with K98s and Mausers to hide renumbering with the white filler to make it harder to see.

 

It does look like a renumber to me. I have almost all variation of WWII Japanese battle rifles and something doesn't look right. The bluing between receiver and barrel are not the same patina, which could be insignificant, but none of the rifles I have show that difference.

Worst case, disassemble and look for discrepancies if you already have not.

 

Now the auction is over, please post a link to the ended GB listing. Maybe help out the next guy if this seller is the one having the mums redone to make a few extra bucks. Or find out where he got it…you don’t go through all this trouble to sell just one rifle…if you know what I mean.

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1122369008

 

Haha! I should’ve been more clear. I was talking about the receiver. If the mum was ground and top of the receiver reshaped and cleaned up, the top will be lower. Measure the outside of the receiver and compare left/right sides to top/bottom. Gotta take it out of the stock to do that. 😉

 

I want to wish you well but I suspect the shank may be a bit flat. I certainly hope not.

 

It looks redone to me. It's too perfect.

 

It looks redone to me too.

 

1600?

I have a similar rifle and bayo, mum is intact, no import marks, I didnt think they that were valuable?

No monopod though.

 

OP, did you actually buy the rifle on Gunbroker?

Link showed no buyer.

 

OP mentioned they came to an agreed price outside of GB.

 

I hate to advise you either way as this could be original or a very good pass at a fake. The things that bother me is that the mum is....perfect. Secondly, the finish on the entire rifle is nearly perfect except...right at the mum and on the monopod. My gut would tell me someone redid a scrubbed mum and added a pod and probably dust cover from somewhere else. Again, just would be my gut if I were in front of it I would inspect everything closely with a magnifying glass. Also, don't like how the pictures are very clear except for the bolt numbers and there are no pics of the back of the dust cover when the rest of the ad feels like someone that knew what to take pictures of for a collector looking to buy.

 

Yeah, with the revelation of the mum, I no longer have any reason to believe that the rifle is likely original. However, that said, the full bolt assembly, dust cover, and receiver all match. The monopod is proofed at the base, has wear and rust, so I don't think it's a fake, but perhaps this series wouldn't have been proofed there per Type 99 Collecting site. The dust cover matches, and while I think it would be at least moderately annoying to find a dust cover with the three same digits, it could have come from thousands of rifles. At least it came with a nice Mukden early bayonet, which is pretty cool. I'll disassemble the rifle at some point and report back.

 

It does not look like a rolled stamp to me. The inscription fill also looks like it is changing color from coming in contact with leftover burn residue

 

That began to change when I was feeling it and assessing it - it was pretty much pure white like the text prior, and was something I noticed as I rubbed it.

 

I agree with the post that asked the white paint be removed and closeup photo taken. We might see some machine marks.

This was purchased in violation of Gun Broker rules. Both parties promised not to do that when they joined Gun Broker. Probably best not to request or attempt a return and there is not even recourse to leave feedback.

 

Oh, jeez, I never knew that, but I'm not surprised. I just wanted to avoid their annoying fees when I can. I wasn't planning on returning it anyway. Guess I need to be more careful.

 

Yes, it's a horribly faked mum. Laser engraved and slightly oversized. Real mums are easy to pick out as the left and right edges will always be thicker than the top and bottom as they were applied with a roll stamp. Some are more aggressive than others and some (particularly Type 38s) will have the metal more finely polished after it was stamped, but they will always have thicker left and right edges. That would be something extremely hard to fake.

 

Great point and expertly detailed. I guess my eyes have always seen it but you be nailed it right there why this one looks wrong. It’s too perfect and it’s that lack of depth on the sides. Initial thought was “it’s just too round”.

 

Definitely fake and oversized. If you look carefully, it seems as if the lip at the barrel/receiver edge is lower at the top, indicating a ground receiver.

 

It can be hard to always put into words, but when you have seen enough real Mum's, it becomes rather easy to immediately know when one is "off" or faked.

 

Roll marks work by displacing metal, an act which over leaves high spots on the perimeter of the stamp. An even marking - without wide or high spots - is typically a no go. I’d be curious to see a high quality flat gauge placed on top of the receiver to see if there are divots or whatever else.

 

Geez, sorry you got bummed on this one. Still a nice rifle though.
My first thought was Oh No! when I saw that famous white filler.🙄

 

At least you have helped reinforce careful examination and attention to details with your post here. Not the best to bypass Gun Broker rules, though, especially now that it's posted on the internet! There's a good chance the seller knew about this faked mum and knew that selling it outside of GB rules would make it harder for you to demand a refund! We should always assume something like this is fake until proven otherwise, by close attention to details, asking others before purchase and learning tons before buying. Nice rifle otherwise.

 

... We should always assume something like this is fake until proven otherwise, by close attention to details, asking others before purchase and learning tons before buying.

Fakery is a reality. Tangential to this discussion is the Finnish "SA" stamp on rifles, other than Mosin Nagants, that were used by Finns. Likely "candidates" for this sort of fakery are Carcano's, Swedish Mausers, and even some Japanese rifles. A guy in Poland is selling the "SA" punches on Ebay:

SA stamp punch K98 P08 | eBay

Condition as pictured - very good. A-7,5 x 6 mm. F- 3,5 2,6 mm.

www.ebay.com

Description of Japanese rifles used in Finland:

FINNISH ARMY 1918 - 1945: RIFLES PART 5

Scroll down to the sections on the various Japanese rifles used in Finland.

 

I don't know why you can't try to return it. It doesn't hurt to ask and the seller may not have even known it is fake. Yeah, it was against Gunbroker rules but how are they going to know? Seller will not be happy but he may take it back. You'll never know unless you try, and you'll never be happy with that rifle.

 

I'm not overjoyed about the rifle having a mum faked, but I can't deny the rifle is nice regardless. I now forfeit any real comfort telling myself any other part of the rifle is likely original, but it does seem to be a correct stock with a matching bolt assembly and dust cover, complete with a genuine monopod- if anything, I will keep it as a piece to study should similar fakes come about, keep it out of circulation, and remind myself to research once, twice, thrice. It could have been faaaaaar worse a burn, in all honesty!

 

Some Finn civil gaurd utilized Arisaka’s stayed in Army possession and were imported to the U.S.. Bayonets and other ancillary equipment were sold as surplus via the army stores. I have Type 30 and 38 rifles with Civil Gaurd markings, two type 35 bayonets and one type 30 bayonet all with Finnish provenance as well. Two of the three bayonets are SA marked and genuine. All I’m saying is that any civil gaurd utilized Arisaka’s that remained in inventory and if inspected post war at any time, they could legitimately have received an SA stamp just as those bayonets did. No I have not seen one on a rifle. Just saying it’s possible.

 

New fake mum just dropped. The faker was nice enough to test it out his engraving on the buttplate. Arisaka collecting is such a minefield these days. It seems a good half of the rifles I see for sale now either have repro monopods/dust covers, or it's some parts bin special that has been thrown together and now the fake mums keep popping up more and more.

 

View attachment 4376838

Why they decided such a poor quality attempt was okay when they could literally just grind it again and go for a better stamping is beyond me.

 

Yeah the, “everything must have a monopod and dust cover” is so stupid and frustrating, saw a late 35th that popped up on GB this morning that some numbnuts put a dust cover on to make it “correct”. Bbbbbut it has grooves, it had to have a dust cover! le sigh

 

Maybe an ignorant question: when a fake mum is applied, is it usually applied to an Arisaka which never had one (and why didn't it?) or usually applied to an Arisaka whose mum had been ground off (and the evidence of grinding removed)?

 

Actually, it's a good question. Some 150,000 M38 rifles and carbines were by bought by Britain in WWI. I expect that these "export" rifles would not be roll-stamped with the mum.

FINNISH ARMY 1918 - 1945: RIFLES PART 5 See the sections on Japanese rifles used in Finland.