1st - what should the twist rate be to stabilize Russian steel core, FMJ, 53 grain bullets?

2nd - how can I tell if a particular US made barrel has the correct bore diameter before purchase? Stick a bullet in the muzzle and see how far it enters? Anyone have any pictures of what it should look like vs. what it looks like with a keyholing barrel?


I wish I could find an AK74 with an original barrel AND a side mount for an optic!

The keyholing prob with Tantals started with serial no. TTL#??????

The newer Tantal serials are YY#???????

Proper twist on a 16" barrel is 1:9...

And Yes the failing Tantals will swallow a bullet past it's case neck...

Note: The Russian surplus 53 grn is excellent ammo. I can punch the same .5 inch hole in the center of targets @ 55 yd with optics. Done with new Saiga 5.45 IZ-240 model. IMHO the surplus is better than some Wolf (the 20 round paks).

 

The sure way to know, is to slug the barrel. Short of that, the serial number ranges that oldFred has provided might be of some help.

Or you can buy Russian made Saiga 5.45 and be done with the issue. By the time you convert the Saiga to AK-74M configuration, you will be looking at a cost slightly lower than buying Tantal or some other American made 5.45 Kalash.

 

but far less than an Arsenal built on a Saiga.

 

I'm not interested in purchasing a Tantal. I'm in the market for a AK74 built from a Bulgarian kit.

Some builders are using US made chrome lined barrels. I happen to like one of these rifles but have concerns about the US barrel and keyhole problems.

 

All of the keyhole reports that I have seen have been with Century built Tantals and this includes some of the newer serial numbers that are supposedly fixed and both of the twist rates that they've offered them in. I can't speak for 5.45 AR rifles, as I don't follow them, but I haven't heard any reports to that effect. Nor have I heard any reports about the Bulgarian kits built with US barrels. They're still fairly new, however.

What I can say, is that I have two Bulgarian 74s with original barrels and neither of them keyhole with any of the five different types of ammo that I have run through them (Wolf 70 grain, Wolf 60 grain, Barnaul 59 grain, Russian and Bulgy surplus), with the Wolf 70 grain and either surplus round being the best, at around 1.5-2 inches at 100 yards. The Wolf 60 grain seemed to be the least consistent, in the 3-4 inch range. The Barnaul was somewhere in between.

Bulgy kit guns with original barrels are out there and not hard to find. If you're looking for the best 74 for the money, with the least amount of risk, that is what I would recommend. A Romanian SAR-2 would also be a good choice. I had one that ran like a champ with no issues at all.

John

 

The bulgarian rifles havent had bad reports . Get a bulgarian . The bulgarians AIm is offering should be of great quality. They are made by Inline .They are a good builder. Centerfire has the TN guns model wich cost less ,but I have seen the cosmetics are not as great on them . Unfortunatly neither have a scope rail riveted on .but then again neither does the Tantal . If you want a rail look for a romanian SAR2 or have Global Military put a rail on for you.

 

I am looking for one with a rail. Lancaster has one for sale but it has the US barrel.

I thought that AIM had the In Range and TGI Bulgarians for sale?

 

I have a Bulgarian 105 and it has never keyholed a bullet with thousands of Russian,Polish,Wolf,ammo put down the spout---Century sold faulty guns ,period---I was one of the lucky ones that got my $ back---If it has a replaced (non original) barrel beware---I'd like to hear from any Century Tantel owner that has one that dosn't keyhole----AND please give an approximat serial # range---Thanx,Lefty

 

I've got a Century built Tantal that I've shot 300+ Bulgarian surplus and 200+ Russian surplus out of and most has been shot out to 75 yards now without any signs of keyholing. Serial # TTL022XX, model # RI-1436-X, which should have been a 1 in 7 twist, but both times I measured it came out closer to 1 in 9. I also noticed last time I cleaned it had a #9 stamped in the bottom of barrel under the lower front hand guard, not sure if it indicates 1 in 9 or what. So I'm not sure if this was possibly a returned keyholer and repaired or what. I received this from my ffl in 8/08 and haven't had any problems with it hot, cold, or meduim barrel temp.. I guess I got lucky with this one!!

 

OK... I spoke with a barrel manufacturer today that seemed to know about the problem(s) with the 5.45x39 US produced barrels.

He said that Century used a lot of 1000 5.56 barrels to produce some of their early Tantals. This is why they keyholed.

He said that there was a different problem with some of the AR barrels related to the chamber dimensions.

Anyway, I've ordered a Bulgarian kit build with a US barrel.... we'll see how it works out!


I also ordered some nice 7N6 surplus from RGUNS - only $295 for a crate!

 

OK... I spoke with a barrel manufacturer today that seemed to know about the problem(s) with the 5.45x39 US produced barrels.

He said that Century used a lot of 1000 5.56 barrels to produce some of their early Tantals. This is why they keyholed.

He said that there was a different problem with some of the AR barrels related to the chamber dimensions.

Pardon me while I do my little victory dance. - "JJK308 Is RIGHT AGAIN"!!!! Thank you for inflating my already massive ego.

If you recall I suggested that using 5.56 barrels might be the source of the problem. There is about a .004 difference in nominal bullet diameter for the 5.56 vs the 5.45. Both are really a .22 cal, and maybe with the ammunition Century used to test it they didn't get keyholing.

 

Posted for DDR:

Q: "1st - what should the twist rate be to stabilize Russian steel core, FMJ, 53 grain bullets?"

A: The twist rate in the original Polish Wz88 Tantal barrels is 1 turn in 8.5". The twist rate in the newly manufactured Russian SAIGA 5.45x39's is also 1 turn in 8.5" That works!


To those folks who use the word "Tantal" to refer to the Century builds, please don't. You may confuse people. If you mean a "Century Tantal", don't be word-lazy...go ahead and say "Century Tantal". Don't indict the good kit-builds made with original kits and barrels. Don't defame the excellent Tantals made by High Standard / Interarms. They manufactured Tantals from original kits and there have been no problems with them. Be specific enough so as to not mislead folks. The word "Tantal" by itself doesn't clarify anything.

 

Good point. And to be more specific, it's only about 1000 of the Century built Tantals that have the wrong bore size. Shame on them.

 

You might want to check with Ohio Rapid Fire (ORF). During their sale two weeks ago they had Bulgarian triangle folder AK74 rifles for $600 w/o rail and $650 with optics rail. Nice rifles. Thety had about 8 when I was there on Sarturday. Not sure if they sold out or if the price is still the same.

 

If you think that the "new" Century twist rate fixed all there problems....it did'nt. Most of those replacement barreled guns will do the same key-holing issues if you run about 60-80 rounds down the "pipe" getting the barrel pretty warm---you will soon see the very same 25 yard key-holing issues until the barrel cools off completely--Then you can duplicate the very same situation again and again when the barrel gets warm. Huge problems here folks that Century does not care to correct.

I do agree that the bore issue was the biggest problem with the early built Century Tantal's

(ie; bore "should have been" 5.45 but they used the commonly available .223 "5.56" bore available at the time)

But once again Century Tantals need to be rebarreled with a QUALITY aftermarket barrel to fix there Monkey Built guns...


Just like the Cetme fiasico, the Tantals followed suit to a "T"....

Just goes to show you any given quality gun can be *f*ucked up by Century----


......Anything for a dollar!.......

I do agree with the above poster, DO NOT confuse Century built Tantals with other "home built" and other manufactured Tantals built on the original barrels--these barrels do shoot quite nice.


BAF

 

I suppose folks with the 5.56 bore rifles could wildcat the standard 5.45X39 into a 5.56X39. And you could think of this as a plus in at least one regard -- the bullets themselves are domestic, standard, and plentiful in the US. I've never fired the 5.45 and don't know if anyone makes reloadable brass for it, so I'll leave off there. Interesting thread.

 

I suppose if you were stuck with the rifle you could reload with .224 projectiles. You would be putting out some cash though and you may need to lower the powder charges which would make it more time consuming also.

Don't think resizing would be necessary, just make sure you have safe neck clearance with a loaded round.

 

At this point who cares? It would take a scientific study to give an absolute about the key hole problem .Its extremly likly its a combo of problems . Twist +diameter. Chamber dimention ? Incorect chamber dimentions usualy result in other more obvious problems .
At this piont ask yourself .Why risk it on a questionable weapon? Dont spend your money on unknowns . That century rifle isnt worht it . Buy aan original barreled Bulgarian wile you still can for these cheap prices . buy a AK74 Bulgarian from Centerfire or Aim .Then get a rail installed by ken kubin .

 

Posted for DDR:

Agreed...that if you are after a 5.45x39 the smart thing to do in today's market is to buy a Bulgarian or a SAIGA - depending on what "look" you desire. The Russians and the Bulgarians know how to build a weapon to shoot their ammo. Apparently, Century does not. I have heard nothing bad about the S&W M&P's in 5.45. Their barrels are chrome lined. Model 1 Sales offers a chrome-moly steel 20" upper for the AR - have heard nothing bad about those. According to an industry publication some years back even Ruger used 0.308" barrels in their 7.62x39 Mini 14 rifles. A couple of thousandths "too tight" is much better than a couple of thousandths too loose.