I'm assuming they would have been blued or perhaps blued barrels and with case colored receivers. I was helping a friend clean one up and found the barrel was in the white even under the wood line. Were the barrels on these originally blued?
JB
According to Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World by Laymann, Egyptian contract rifles (some of which went to France for the Franco-Prussinan War, could be finished both bright and brown which I assume means: NOT blued. Some receivers were case-hardened. Some barrels were browned (i.e., blued). I believe Layman believes most Egyptian rifles were NOT "browned" but am not sure even he is sure.
Mine is a bit of a beater someone started to refinish: really somewhat hard to say just WHAT its original finish probably was. Generally I believe these rifles were used hard. (Although doesn't seem like they'd be likely to be put away "wet" in Egypt much.)
Mine is a bit of a beater someone started to refinish: really somewhat hard to say just WHAT its original finish probably was. Generally I believe these rifles were used hard. (Although doesn't seem like they'd be likely to be put away "wet" in Egypt much.)
According to George, and as far as we can tell from the surviving documents, all of the Egyptian rifles that went to Egypt were bright. Of the rifles that went to France, it looks as if about 2/3 or more were bright and the remainder "brown" - keeping in mind that "brown" in 19th century terminology is "blue" today. (i.e. things like internal Springfield Armory documents refer to trapdoors as being "brown".) The surviving "brown" Egyptian rifles rifles have blue barrels and color case hardened receivers. George had one of the "brown" rifles years ago that he bought in France around 1967, still in virtually new condition. In the case of the French rifles, considerable original correspondence with specific shipping information survives. Were someone patient enough to do it, it might be possible to come up with nearly exact numbers for each of the finishes.
No finish would have lasted in Egypt. In fact, the rifles were apparently not lubricated in service as sand mixing with oil wore them out faster than just leaving them dry. Its a remarkable testament to how durable the RB action is. (I edited the book and helped with the research.)
No finish would have lasted in Egypt. In fact, the rifles were apparently not lubricated in service as sand mixing with oil wore them out faster than just leaving them dry. Its a remarkable testament to how durable the RB action is. (I edited the book and helped with the research.)
I believe that the Egyptian Rifles were made with blued barrels and case hardened receivers.
Enclosed is a photo's of some of the guns from my collection that I had on display at a local gun show in 2008. The Rifle in the back row is one of the Egyptain Rifles that was divered from Egypt and sent to France. It still has the original bluing on the barrel, the 3rd rifle from the back is one that was sent to Egypt and has seen some hard use. All the bluing is gone from the barrel on this gun.
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Have a Good Day,
Matt
Enclosed is a photo's of some of the guns from my collection that I had on display at a local gun show in 2008. The Rifle in the back row is one of the Egyptain Rifles that was divered from Egypt and sent to France. It still has the original bluing on the barrel, the 3rd rifle from the back is one that was sent to Egypt and has seen some hard use. All the bluing is gone from the barrel on this gun.
Have a Good Day,
Matt
Here are some more photo's of the rifle that was sent to france.
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"my45mutt
just wondering what do .43 egyptian rolling blocks go for these days in good conditon. I havent seen one for sale in a long time. Thanks Dustin "
The ones that I have see go for $300 to $450, I all depends on the condition of the gun.
Have a Good Day,
Matt
"my45mutt
just wondering what do .43 egyptian rolling blocks go for these days in good conditon. I havent seen one for sale in a long time. Thanks Dustin "
The ones that I have see go for $300 to $450, I all depends on the condition of the gun.
Have a Good Day,
Matt
Matt,
I don't doubt that your rifle went to France and was blued. The problem is that the story of the "Egyptian contract rifles diverted to France" is probably not true. There is no reference to such a situation in the Watson Squire papers. All the evidence shows that the Egyptian Contract Rifles went to Egypt... and that the contract was completed 6 months before the Franco Prussian War began. When the war did break out, it was "Egyptian model" rifles that Remington could manufacture fastest and in the largest quantity. Even the caliber, ".43 Egyptian" has nothing to do with Egypt except that they adopted it. Its a necked down .50-70 probably developed early in 1866 and used in the Vienna trials in September-October of 1866. The Egyptians were just the first country to buy it from Remington.
The defaulted order story probably refers to a 2nd Egyptian order placed after the completion of the first one in January of 1870. The only evidence of this that has surfaced so far is a letter from Sam Norris to Sam Remington discussing an Egyptian payment in lieu of default but it concludes on a note of "we'll want to do more business with this customer in the future" - hardly the sort of reaction anyone would expect if the Egyptians were seen as deadbeats. In any case, as stated above, specific shipping information regarding the guns sent to France is still in existence and makes if very clear that most E models were bright so your gun is especially nice.
I don't doubt that your rifle went to France and was blued. The problem is that the story of the "Egyptian contract rifles diverted to France" is probably not true. There is no reference to such a situation in the Watson Squire papers. All the evidence shows that the Egyptian Contract Rifles went to Egypt... and that the contract was completed 6 months before the Franco Prussian War began. When the war did break out, it was "Egyptian model" rifles that Remington could manufacture fastest and in the largest quantity. Even the caliber, ".43 Egyptian" has nothing to do with Egypt except that they adopted it. Its a necked down .50-70 probably developed early in 1866 and used in the Vienna trials in September-October of 1866. The Egyptians were just the first country to buy it from Remington.
The defaulted order story probably refers to a 2nd Egyptian order placed after the completion of the first one in January of 1870. The only evidence of this that has surfaced so far is a letter from Sam Norris to Sam Remington discussing an Egyptian payment in lieu of default but it concludes on a note of "we'll want to do more business with this customer in the future" - hardly the sort of reaction anyone would expect if the Egyptians were seen as deadbeats. In any case, as stated above, specific shipping information regarding the guns sent to France is still in existence and makes if very clear that most E models were bright so your gun is especially nice.
Matt,
I think that George has already sent me that picture... Its fantastic, probably the best RB picture I've ever seen for the combination of a rare model and the men who carried them. Pictures of Egyptian soldiers with RB's are rare enough - I don't even know if I've seen another, much less with musketoons.
Joe P.
I think that George has already sent me that picture... Its fantastic, probably the best RB picture I've ever seen for the combination of a rare model and the men who carried them. Pictures of Egyptian soldiers with RB's are rare enough - I don't even know if I've seen another, much less with musketoons.
Joe P.
I know for a fact that there were RRBs sent to France. I have as near mint rifle that was returned to the U.S. by a private European gun collector and wound up in my collection after his death. the barrel is in the white
My vote is for polished bright. I have two Egyptian RB rifles and one carbine and all have been polished bright. One you would swear was browned since it has such a beautiful overall brown patina on all metal but is polished bright under the forend. I also have a spare Egyptian barrel which saw quite a bit of aging but is obviously bright below the wood line level. The other rifle that I'm currently de-rusting was obviously beautifully polished below the wood line and under the rear sight. The carbine has an aged bright finish.
I also recall reading in Rolling Block period literature - reminiscences or something similar that Egyptian soldiers were observed passing by on parade with their arms polished bright. I believe the ones sent to France may have been blued since the couple of examples that I have seen have been so or at least had blue barrels - I can't remember :-(. My current questions are: what sling was supplied with the RBs to Egypt and was the bayonet scabbard blued or painted - or both?
Alan
I also recall reading in Rolling Block period literature - reminiscences or something similar that Egyptian soldiers were observed passing by on parade with their arms polished bright. I believe the ones sent to France may have been blued since the couple of examples that I have seen have been so or at least had blue barrels - I can't remember :-(. My current questions are: what sling was supplied with the RBs to Egypt and was the bayonet scabbard blued or painted - or both?
Alan
Again, it is probably the case that all rifles that went to Egypt were bright. This includes all of the 1st contract which are the only Egyptian rifles that have a concave breechblock. When found these rifles are invariably in well worn condition. Ultimately Egypt purchased "almost 200,000" rifles. The actual text of only the first contract (for 60,000) has been found but this number is used by both Sam Norris and Sam Remington in their private correspondence. There is no evidence that Remington defaulted on the 1st contract by delivering late (as they did with Denmark), in which case the last of the Egyptian rifles were delivered 6 months before the Franco-Prussian War began.
By the time the FP War began, the design of the RB action had changed to incorporate a flat-base breechblock. We've yet to find a rifle with a known French provenance that has the earlier (1st E. contract) concave breechblock. Some sort of Egyptian default did occur but it seems more likely this was on a 2nd order which had probably only just gotten underway when the F-P War began and we know (again from a S. Norris letter) that these rifles were sold to France. Of the rifles that went to France it appears (from shipping information) that most were bright but some were brown.
By the time the FP War began, the design of the RB action had changed to incorporate a flat-base breechblock. We've yet to find a rifle with a known French provenance that has the earlier (1st E. contract) concave breechblock. Some sort of Egyptian default did occur but it seems more likely this was on a 2nd order which had probably only just gotten underway when the F-P War began and we know (again from a S. Norris letter) that these rifles were sold to France. Of the rifles that went to France it appears (from shipping information) that most were bright but some were brown.
Well, after reading this post the other day. I found myself looking at one of these and trying and seeing what it is.:grin: I am not a rolling block collector and not planning on being one but might pick it up to sell to a good home before its bubbafied. Anyway the finish is dull, like no gun blue what so ever as dull as a dull nickel!!! The remington print near the trigger is hard to read, i made out 1865 but unsure. The barrel is near mint in my opinion has really good grooves and is shiney, it has all the egyptian writing on it on top. What I would like to know before I get it is, the wood is very light almost like oak, not dark like most RB's I have everseen. Is this normal and also where these gun imported? This one has no import marks. Just wondering how it got here.
Sorry to change topics but thought I would add this instead of starting another eqyption rb post. :thumbsup:
Sorry to change topics but thought I would add this instead of starting another eqyption rb post. :thumbsup:
I believe that the majority were imported in the late 1950's/early 1960's (JVPuleo can correct me) and another batch arrived in the 1980's. I have seen the wood in varying colors and I have two with a lighter "golden oakish" sort of color I would say to be nearly more original than the dark ones since the ones that I have had or still have that are dark have been refinished or were crud-covered... What does the condition of the metal of the receiver look like on the one for sale? I'd possibly be interested in one that doesn't have metal problems in the receiver.
Any of a number of things but in various rifles that I have, I would probably call it "metal fatigue". For instance, I have just de-rusted an Egyptian RB barrel & receiver and upon examining the receiver closely, there appears to be a line of weakness along the top of the receiver just to the right of centerline. This is compounded by the fact that the top front of the receiver is really worn down where it meets the barrel so there is less metal than there should be. It also appears that some crystallization of the metal in the receiver has occurred. I had hoped to shoot it but it appears that it will be strictly for display.
The light colored stocks are probably Egyptian-made from palm wood. These are usually seen on the earliest guns. If the gun you are looking at has a concave base breechblock it is one of the 1st contract... if it has no "steps" in the side and a rotary extractor it is one of the last supplied. In between are those with a flat base breech block and side extractor. We do not know exactly what quantities were supplied and when individual deliveries were made. George Layman's book gives all of the chronological information currently available and cites the sources that mention the total number as being "almost 200,000."
Hello Gents,
An interesting and informative thread! It’s always a pleasure learning something new. I know pretty much squat about Remington Rolling Blocks other than a general overview of their place in the development of black powder cartridge rifles. I’ve read background material regarding the rifles that were used during WWI since that is my general field of collecting. Even then, my knowledge of the details of these interesting rifles is limited at best.
However, I have quite a few contemporary weapons that I do have knowledge of and have examined more than a few period rifles over the years. I have two well worn Egyptian Rolling Blocks that I cleaned thoroughly when they were first acquired. The first example is shown in the photo below along with two variations of the Turkish Peabody-Martini. The second rifle appears along with a French contract Mle 1914 in the second photo. Having cleaned a lot of old rifles over the years, there is little doubt in my mind that both rifle’s barrels were finished “bright” when they were originally manufactured. It’s either that, or the Egyptians decided to break them all down and polish them at some later date, which I seriously doubt.
One rifle has the lighter butt-stock mentioned by JV Puleo earlier in this thread, which I believe was referenced as being Palm wood, while the forearm of this rifle (pictured below), looks to be faded walnut. The other example, shown along with the French Mle 1914 Rolling Block, looks to me like it has retained the original walnut stock and forearm. Interesting! Based on the color, I would hazard a guess that the Peabody-Martini 7.65x53mm conversion in the photo was also possibly restocked in the Palm wood or at least something similar? Every original Turkish Peabody-Martini I have seen, such as the example in the bottom of the same photo, has featured a dark walnut stock???
I’ve added a second photo of the French issue RB in 8x51mmR Lebel, which was mentioned by John earlier in this thread.
It’s been a real pleasure following this thread. It’s always nice to learn something new! Thank you one and all for enlightening the rest of us.
Warmest regards,
JPS
An interesting and informative thread! It’s always a pleasure learning something new. I know pretty much squat about Remington Rolling Blocks other than a general overview of their place in the development of black powder cartridge rifles. I’ve read background material regarding the rifles that were used during WWI since that is my general field of collecting. Even then, my knowledge of the details of these interesting rifles is limited at best.
However, I have quite a few contemporary weapons that I do have knowledge of and have examined more than a few period rifles over the years. I have two well worn Egyptian Rolling Blocks that I cleaned thoroughly when they were first acquired. The first example is shown in the photo below along with two variations of the Turkish Peabody-Martini. The second rifle appears along with a French contract Mle 1914 in the second photo. Having cleaned a lot of old rifles over the years, there is little doubt in my mind that both rifle’s barrels were finished “bright” when they were originally manufactured. It’s either that, or the Egyptians decided to break them all down and polish them at some later date, which I seriously doubt.
One rifle has the lighter butt-stock mentioned by JV Puleo earlier in this thread, which I believe was referenced as being Palm wood, while the forearm of this rifle (pictured below), looks to be faded walnut. The other example, shown along with the French Mle 1914 Rolling Block, looks to me like it has retained the original walnut stock and forearm. Interesting! Based on the color, I would hazard a guess that the Peabody-Martini 7.65x53mm conversion in the photo was also possibly restocked in the Palm wood or at least something similar? Every original Turkish Peabody-Martini I have seen, such as the example in the bottom of the same photo, has featured a dark walnut stock???
I’ve added a second photo of the French issue RB in 8x51mmR Lebel, which was mentioned by John earlier in this thread.
It’s been a real pleasure following this thread. It’s always nice to learn something new! Thank you one and all for enlightening the rest of us.
Warmest regards,
JPS
Attachments
On the Turk Peabody Martini, the original wood was N.American black walnut. All the restocks I've seen are in the much, much lighter European walnut native to Turkey, which they also used on Mausers up through the rebuild programs in the 50s. Since the wood is lighter in weight and can run to almost white in color, it is difficult to judge from a photo whether it is indeed their normal walnut or something more exotic.
Thank you Richard!
More excellent info! Now that I think about it, one of my M1908 Turkish Mauser carbines has been restocked with very similar colored wood. Thank you for your input.
Anyone have any idea regarding how to tell Turkish walnut from Palm wood??? Is there any chance that the Rolling Block with the light colored butt-stock was restocked in Turkey???
Great thread Gents! Thank you.
Warmest regards,
JPS
More excellent info! Now that I think about it, one of my M1908 Turkish Mauser carbines has been restocked with very similar colored wood. Thank you for your input.
Anyone have any idea regarding how to tell Turkish walnut from Palm wood??? Is there any chance that the Rolling Block with the light colored butt-stock was restocked in Turkey???
Great thread Gents! Thank you.
Warmest regards,
JPS
I doubt it, even though Egypt was still part of the Ottoman Empire when the RBs were purchased. The general, international feeling on that was that Ismael was positioning himself to declare independence from the Sultan and there were serious reservations in Constantinople about what was going on in Cairo. That may have been his plan but it never happened. The British took control of Egypt (still nominally a suzerainty of the Ottomans) in 1882 while the RBs were in everyday use. Its seems much more likely that the restocking was done at the Cairo Arsenal - which we know was equipped with some modern machinery because Ismael Pasha purchased much of it through Remington.
Regarding the Palm wood... I got that bit of information from George Layman and I'm not sure where he got it. I don't know that anyone has tested it. For all I know, it could be Turkish walnut. I'm skeptical of many offhand references to where wood comes from... as if this was simply a matter of glancing at a stock. I much prefer an observation like richardww's above, because walnut is indigenous to Turkey and we know they also exported it for gun stocks. Also, the Turks had a complete assortment of stock making machinery, including Blanchard duplicating lathes, while the PM's were still their standard arm.
Regarding the Palm wood... I got that bit of information from George Layman and I'm not sure where he got it. I don't know that anyone has tested it. For all I know, it could be Turkish walnut. I'm skeptical of many offhand references to where wood comes from... as if this was simply a matter of glancing at a stock. I much prefer an observation like richardww's above, because walnut is indigenous to Turkey and we know they also exported it for gun stocks. Also, the Turks had a complete assortment of stock making machinery, including Blanchard duplicating lathes, while the PM's were still their standard arm.
JPS,
Are those " converted " Chassepot bayonets with your Remingtons. I have a very nice .43 Remington made for Argentina ( Modelo Argentino 1879 ). Blued barrel, " bright " receiver and you can still see the finishing marks on the walnut buttstock. I know the .43 Spanish had its own bayonet but I suspect that Chassepots may have been converted to fit them as well. Any ideas or soild knowledge. This has been a great thread! Joe
Are those " converted " Chassepot bayonets with your Remingtons. I have a very nice .43 Remington made for Argentina ( Modelo Argentino 1879 ). Blued barrel, " bright " receiver and you can still see the finishing marks on the walnut buttstock. I know the .43 Spanish had its own bayonet but I suspect that Chassepots may have been converted to fit them as well. Any ideas or soild knowledge. This has been a great thread! Joe
Joe, I doubt that they are converted Chassepots since a number of German firms such as Gebruder Weyersburg and W.R. Kirschbaum and perhaps Alex Coppel made saber bayonets for the Egyptian Rolling Block. According to Jerry Janzen, W.R. Kirschbaum made saber bayonets (straight blade) for the 1879 Argentine model and he also mentions that some yataghan style bayonets were also made. He also mentions that the Egyptian bayonet will fit the Argentine rifle.
Alan
Alan
What kind of palm tree would yield wood suitable for rifle stocks? Do desert palms (as in the middle east) differ so much from palms in moist countries that they would be sufficiently hard, light and close-grained for usage as stocks? I have lived for years in two quite separate countries with palm trees, and I have never seen wood from them which was good for much except retaining soil,or in the case of the Sabal palm, absorbing cannon balls.
Great thread. JPS's collection pictures are always a treat, and the rolling block is certainly a "common" rifle about which much more needs to be discovered.
Great thread. JPS's collection pictures are always a treat, and the rolling block is certainly a "common" rifle about which much more needs to be discovered.
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