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Buying a FAKE kanji signed Hinomaru Yosegaki WWII Japanese meatball flag

4.6K views 9 replies 8 participants last post by  chunkymunkey  
#1 ·
Hi Guys


As you may know from another thread on here which I started, I had located a signed flag for sale on ebay which I had questioned because the ink was TOO BLACK/NEW looking for being 72 plus years old, black ink fades with age. The dealer is from Japan. His wording is very clever, he says " WWII ish " and 30-40 years old. The cotton flag itself could very well be vintage WWII production, but the KANJI is what made me question it. Nowhere in his description does he state that the kanji is "original" or WWII period nor does he translate it either, which is odd, because the seller is Japanese. The auction link will eventually become invalid after 60 days, but this seller's ebay name is ( oldtextile )



Auction LINK : http://www.ebay.com/itm/382000884133?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


NOW HERE IS THE IRONIC TWIST,


I DID buy this flag, but knowing in my mind that it was a FAKE. So why would I buy it ??? Because as many of you may well know, I recently made a reproduction 1945 Japanese pole bayonet and did a thread of it on here. I wanted a more realistic looking signed flag to display on it, instead of the one it currently has. This fake flag was just the ticket for me. I didn't want to display my well worn original on it, and somebody spent some quality time making this fake flag up to look as good as it does. The kanji is nicely formed, and not sloppy. To me, 80.00 isn't that bad for a realistic looking fake for my intended purpose stated above. At the end of the day, I bought something that I wanted, knowing that it is a replica.



I know that buying a FAKE might be hard for some to understand and I will probably catch some flak from forum members on here. But since I collect WWII German artifacts I can relate that it is well known. That there are some reproduction German items (fakes) that command good prices because their quality and limited production run. Now in the Japanese reproduction field, there are some NAKATA reproductions that are no longer being produced that tend to fetch high prices when offered up for sale, such as LMG pouches, and or knee mortar accessories. The idea of collectable FAKES has been discussed in the German Militaria forum on here from time to time and the consensus is that some replicas are collectable in their own right and that there is a collecting field for them.


One other reason for doing this thread is also to expose these flags coming out of Japan, not that this hasn't been already been done, it has been and somebody posted a link to another thread on this flag in the Wehrmacht Awards Forum. To be fair, this seller has been selling some genuine WWII production meatball flags of both cotton and silk production with paper and leather corners. But now he's selling fake kanji flags through clever wording. That is where I draw the line and I think it is wrong trying to pass off something as a legit period piece. Hopefully those looking to buy signed flags will read this and the other links and become better informed about what's hitting the market now.

LINK to 1st thread about this flag: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?726690-Good-or-bad-Hinomaru-Yosegaki




I do think that the seller needs to be exposed for what he is selling and using clever wording while absolving himself of any liabilities. Currently nobody has left him neutral or negative feedback for any replicated kanji signed flags. I am going to leave him neutral feedback simply to expose him for what he is doing. I am not going to leave negative feedback because I suspected it was a fake and bought it as such.
 
#3 ·
"Oldtextile" is better known in the vintage kimono market. Generally decent stuff, but you need to read the descriptions, I have bought from them in the past, and will do so again. I very much suspect that this is a film prop or re-enactment piece. I saw it when it was up for sale, and I did not see it as being sold with intent to deceive.
 
#5 ·
"I did not see it as being sold with intent to deceive.
I bought it believing it to be a replica for my pole bayonet. because I wanted a realistic replica to display on it. but I feel his wording is a slippery slope and borderline deceptive because in this case, he never comes out saying the kanji is post war applied. I think he knows what he is selling but words it in such a way as to absolve himself of any ebay claims against selling outright fake items. I have seen sellers do that before.


On a side note, I did buy some WWII meatball flags from him about this time last year , they were really nice quality.
 
#8 ·
It is getting harder to judge most all WWII artifacts as being, "original made before 1945" and "original made after 1945". My uncle ended the war inside Germany and was held over on occupation duty for a year. Against the "non-fraternization" rules, he hung out in bars where older Germans drank and became chummy with a number of them. Letting them know that the artifact that he had wanted was an SS dagger, he was later taken to a location, where SS daggers were being produced on original equipment, by men who'd been producing such daggers for years. So, who is ever going to tell the difference between a pre-1945 SS dagger and a post-1945 SS dagger?
 
#9 ·
One thing to look for on reproduction/fake items like this is the actual writing.
Does it look like only one or two people have written all the characters?
Originals were written/signed by many different people, and therefore the characters should have variety in their form, the same as differences in handwriting would be apparent in western writing when written by many different people.
 
#10 ·
When I had my flag translated by an older Japanese lady, she said she immediately knew it was old. She explained that many of the characters and symbols used were not being used anymore and had not been used since WWII. If in doubt, finding an accurate translator may be worth the time.