[Alan L]

I'll share this, the IOF .315 sporter, which is a no 1 mk 3 still made at ishapore. Cost is roughly $1K. Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services) | Government of India

Hi,
I was very interested in the add, I had no idea that Lee Enfields were still being reproduced as sporting rifles or in any form for that matter.
A few thing jump out at me, firstly it seems rather pricey if one was after a simple, knockabout sporting rifle. I looked up the price of the cheapest rifle and a sporting Savage 308 came up and it was a surprisingly low $350 US. Much as I am a Lee Enfield fan, I can’t see one being better than the Savage in the field.
Secondly, I was surprised that it was chambered in 8mm. I would have thought 308 Winchester to be the obvious choice. I presume the 8mm would have at least as high a chamber pressure as 308? I didnt realise that 8mm was still a modern cartridge.
Thirdly, 4” (100mm) accuracy at 100 yards doesn't seem sufficiently good for a sporting rifle today. I do understand the requirements of a military rifle in terms of accuracy, I expect around 2” from my converted rifles (heavy barrel). The fact that these are new rifles I have to wonder if that’s the best they can do?
Am I being too hard on these rifles? Any thoughts?
Alan

 

[DisasterDog]

You just brought up an interesting question.


We've heard from NZ,AU, CA, and British members about firearm ownership in their countries. BUT......what about India??? What are their laws/regulations pertaining to gun ownership?? I dont think we have any board members on here from India to answer that question.

We’ve had a few Indian members, the most recent that I can remember was seeking advice on a revolver that turned out to be faked. Firearms are heavily restricted & therefore big money. Military calibers are not allowed to be owned, which is why these sporting Enfields are made in an obsolete cartridge whose production is solely through the Indian government.

We have discussed the Indian Webley & Scott’s which are only available in .32 S&W Long and extremely expensive. Although they supposedly make handguns in .45 ACP, they are not available to the general public.

 

[caerlonie]

Also,firearm imports to India were very heavily restricted.....so that meant domestic manufacture had a ready market as they had little competition in the marketplace.

 

[Alan De Enfield]

Also,firearm imports to India were very heavily restricted.....so that meant domestic manufacture had a ready market as they had little competition in the marketplace.

Would you really want to buy a firearm from a factory and proof house who did the proof tests on 20 gauge shotguns using 12 gauge proof loads because no one told them they were a different calibe ?

Remember these were the folks testing your Ishapore No1 Mk3 and even worse the 2a & 2a1 7.62 rifles where, because they failed the testing, they changed the tests until they passed.


Extract from an interesting article written by the Ishapore Proofmaster (retired)

 

[panzerfaust44]

Would you really want to buy a firearm from a factory and proof house who did the proof tests on 20 gauge shotguns using 12 gauge proof loads because no one told them they were a different calibe ?

Remember these were the folks testing your Ishapore No1 Mk3 and even worse the 2a & 2a1 7.62 rifles where, because they failed the testing, they changed the tests until they passed.


Extract from an interesting article written by the Ishapore Proofmaster (retired)

View attachment 4105159

I wonder if this factory and or proof house also make historical reproduction black powder muskets as I know India has been making them for over 20 years.

 

[JB White]

I wonder if this factory and or proof house also make historical reproduction black powder muskets as I know India has been making them for over 20 years.

The vast majority of their repro muzzleloaders are shipped as non-firing, thus making them exempt from proof laws. They also dodge the firearm export laws as they aren’t considered true firearms being non functional.

Once they arrive here they are drilled for flash holes etc making them functional. The USA has no proof law requirements and repro muzzleloaders fall into the antique exemption.

While they work and people are using them, it’s blind faith trusting the metallurgy.

 

[john.k]

India is a very nasty place ,the police ,courts and the law are owned by the rich and politically connected ........the rich can literally get away with murder..........the greatest fear of the rich is armed revolution ......consequently no one can legally own so much as a club .............However ,if your parents are rich and well connected ,you can get a gun licence without any difficulty.............you probably wont need one,due to political influence.......generally its distant relations,second cousins etc that have the gun licences .

 

[panzerfaust44]

The vast majority of their repro muzzleloaders are shipped as non-firing, thus making them exempt from proof laws. They also dodge the firearm export laws as they aren’t considered true firearms being non functional.

Once they arrive here they are drilled for flash holes etc making them functional. The USA has no proof law requirements and repro muzzleloaders fall into the antique exemption.

While they work and people are using them, it’s blind faith trusting the metallurgy.

I agree,

Alot of re-enactors use them though........and not just the USA.....around the world.

How would Britain or Australia view these guns when entering their countries? Do they proof them or inspect them??

 

[john.k]

No proof in Oz,but with undrilled touch holes they couldnt be proofed anyway..........However,I suspect you wouldnt get one in without the anti gun fanatics screaming "flint lock machine guns".........and I bet the Queensland coppers would demand they be licenced .....touch hole or not.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

Hi,
I was very interested in the add, I had no idea that Lee Enfields were still being reproduced as sporting rifles or in any form for that matter.
A few thing jump out at me, firstly it seems rather pricey if one was after a simple, knockabout sporting rifle. I looked up the price of the cheapest rifle and a sporting Savage 308 came up and it was a surprisingly low $350 US. Much as I am a Lee Enfield fan, I can’t see one being better than the Savage in the field.
Secondly, I was surprised that it was chambered in 8mm. I would have thought 308 Winchester to be the obvious choice. I presume the 8mm would have at least as high a chamber pressure as 308? I didnt realise that 8mm was still a modern cartridge.
Thirdly, 4” (100mm) accuracy at 100 yards doesn't seem sufficiently good for a sporting rifle today. I do understand the requirements of a military rifle in terms of accuracy, I expect around 2” from my converted rifles (heavy barrel). The fact that these are new rifles I have to wonder if that’s the best they can do?
Am I being too hard on these rifles? Any thoughts?
Alan

Arms and ammo imports are generally not legal in India, so most of the answers to your very valid points are "because of indian law". Since relatively recently effectively all arms and ammo mfg is by state owned corporations. It being in 8mm austrian is because of the british though, they banned military calibers in their colonies at the end of the 1800s and that just carried over. The spec isnt great for a modern sporting rifle, but it is a no 1 mk 3. 4" at 100 yards is probably not too different from the no 1 mk 3 spec. But there is very little competition, there are only a handful of weapons that are legal to own there and this one of them. There is also a 30-06 hunting rifle that is legal, but I dont know anything about that. Would love to get my hands on one of the Webleys they make as well. I am interested in them purely as a curiosity.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

I found another relevant datapoint for this thread, the AIA M10, which was manufactured in the modern era, a No4 Mk1 clone. Price was ~$700 about 10 years ago. No longer in business.