Looks like you might have a German wwI Gewehr 98 action. Hard to say for sure based on the pic's, but it seems to have the correct "rollercoaster" rear sight so typical on the wwI Gew 98's ...but again ... Mauser are NOT my strong side.

If it is ...8x57 ammo would be the normal cal. Stocks can be found now and then ..but in good condition they are not what I'd call cheap

 

Commercial target rifle for military style competition?

First guess is that you have a barrelled action from a "service man's rifle" type of target rifle that was a popular competition in Germany between the wars. The crown over B, crown over U, crown over G are commercial proofs from 1924-1934. A close up picture of your bolt face would help establish caliber- many of these were in 8.15x46R which was a very popular mid-range target cartridge in Germany in the 1890-1940 period. Some of these were made in full service caliber also (8x57). Now, while I am guessing- I'll bet it is the 8.15 which was why it was never cut down, scoped and stocked like a Weatherby and why the bore is still perfect. If a fired 8x57 case will barely start into the chamber, it is likely the 8.15 round. These rifles were made to Gew98 configuration and it should be possible to restore it to original configuration to shoot it. If the caliber is 8.15 then it is possible to get ammo or reload for it. These are very rare (compared to military isssue GEW98's) and it would be fun to restore and shoot it.

 

More on the Wehrmannbuchse

These Wehrmannbuchse target rifles were made by Mauser and other makers starting before WWI and going into the 1930's. The early ones typically had straight bolt handles and a Lange Vizier type rear sight (i.e. GEW98 clone). Later examples had bent bolt handles and tangent sights like the K98b. These rifles in 8.15x46R often have excellent condition bores because they were treasured target rifles that were surrendered at the end of the war and there was not available ammo like the piles and boxes of corrosive military ammo laying around that allowed the GI's picking up a 98K rifle to send home to fire off a few rounds and then pack them away for shipping without cleaning. The 8.15 rimmed cartridge requires a very different extractor/bolt face than the rimmless 8x57 and so a picture would indicate this and allow confirmation of caliber. The extractor hoof is much narrower for the 8.1. Some of these were made for the 8x57 service round however, so this is also a possibility. Because of the odd caliber (not available for quite a while after WWII), these rifles in 8.15 often escaped sporterizing in the 1940's- 1950's. This is a really interesting find.

 

more info and questions....

Gentlemen, Thank You so very much.

According to the person who owns this piece, it was brought back from WW 11 by his late father, who participated in the Normandy invasion and the battle of Bastionne..( spelling probably not correct.)
He never remembers it having a stock.

After speaking with him for over an hour while we were looking over the action, I get the feeling it's not BS.
He did say, it would be nice for it to go to someone who would appreciate it, and might do something with it.

FYI...the marks, etc. between the bbl. lug and mag. well ...from lug towards well are:
top left ... 4 and what looks like a backwards 6 beside the 4 ( as in 46 )
top center...3
top right...T

left side center...S
left center middle... a cluster of Letters...T w/M stamped offset on top of T
slightly below right.. the letters E and Y
Right side center...U
below that and slightly left is a small BO

Bottom left...L ?
Bottom right...W

Now the questions...
could the 7.7mm marking on the bbl. bottom be for the 8.15x46R cartridge mentioned ?

ANY thoughts on a fair market value price range I might offer for this ?????

( I told him I would post info and pics. for other collectors to see and value, and I would let him know what I receive...I WILL NOT lie to him just to get a possible rarer piece cheap.)( he seems very interested in the history as well.)

Can I assume this action will fit in a Gewehr 98 stock ?

I will call and ask if he can provide pics. of the bolt face. Then post on this thread.

As always...your thoughts and advise are deeply appreciated.

gunshy

 

Böhler made barrel blanks for lots of rifle makers. The seemed to be a popular supplier for the gun makers of Zella Mehlis and Steyr.

 

HA! I was right it could be German, not just a M24 Mosin. I'd say that yeah, 7,7 would suggest to me it might be 8.15x46R, but whatever it is, check your chamber with a cast once you get it.

The rifle should fit any '98 inletted stock, so for military a Gew98 barrel, 98/22 Czech, or some South American stocks, or you could go full-out and get a nice German Guild-styled sporting stock for it.

Fair price is hard to say without knowing caliber. A full Wehrmansgewehr is about an eight-to-a-thousand sort of deal, but just the guts is in that nebulous "valuable to he who has parts" zone where most people can't spend too much piecing one together before spending as much as buying a whole one.

I'd offer the guy $250-350 depending on bore condition, and I am wildly guessing.

 

Always a good idea-check reference books.

I dug out my copy of Speed, Schmid and Herrmann's "Mauser Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" which provides quite a bit of information on the military style target rifles. It does confirm 7.7 mm as the land diameter for for the 8.15 x 46R and 8.05 mm as groove diameter from a 1926 vintage company docuement. If the magazine functions so that the rifle is a repeater, then it is a Wehrmannsgewehre as Vaarok used the term; if it is set up as a single shot then it is a Wehrmannsbuchse. Many of the Mauser Wermannsbuchse rifles were made with a solid receiver bottom/loading ramp but then had a functional magazine with follower and spring in place as well. As they went into the 1930's, the German target shooters apparently got more "techie" and they started using more refined sights and even set triggers on target riles that otherwise were of WWI military length. Mauser was quite proud of their name and logo so this rifle was probably made by a smaller maker unless there is a small Mauser shield tucked away somewhere on it. If the rifle is set up for the 8x57 case, then the 7.7 would be a tight .318 bore so I would recommend slugging the barrel in addition to a chamber cast. Special bore/chamber dimensions are always possible on a civilian rifle- particulary for the target shooting crowd. Bottom line value is set by the fact that this is a commercial proof Mauser action (not Oberndorf??) from the 1920's. I'll go rinse my mouth with bourbon for having said that. If it is 8.15 x 46R, then this was reputedly a very accurate target round and was reloaded widely and used for bockjagd (roebuck hunting) as well. About like a .32/40.

 

Your comments

Icmunn,

Thanks again for the additional info. Who would'uv thunk I'd run into something like this and need another book on Mausers.

It is set up as a repeater, with the standard Mauser floorplate ( release button at rear of plate in front of the TG.), follower spring and milled follower.
Even has the action capture screws.

Called the owner today and gave him the info I had, along with Vaarok's wild price guess.
He will take bolt face pictures and email them and I will try to post them here.
He had spoken with his brother, who related that their father had said he got this from a warehouse or storage facility during the war.

I was really hoping that more would voice their thoughts on a possible price range for this. ( It's a different animal and I don't have a clue.)

Should (?) I be able to purchase it, I'm really of the mindset to try to restore this with a nice Gew 98 stock and hardware...if it's possible to find one.

Thanks to all for your time and info.

gunshy

 

Bolt face pic.

Here is a picture of the bolt face of this action, which might help identify caliber.
Also posting additional measurement info.

Regards,
gunshy

The picture of the bolt face is attached. The case head is similar to a
> > 30-06 or similar cartridge. The bore (measured roughly with a wooden
> > dowel
> > and micrometer) measures about .315. This makes sense 7.7mm would be
> > somewhere around .313 or so. A .284 bullet slides in the barrel. A .307
> > bullet does not.

 

Enclosed bolt head ? .303 ?

For starts, it looks like I was wrong in speculating that it was going to prove to be a 8.15x46R. Glad I was betting with your money. Actually, the picture of the bolt head is very intriguing because it looks like the enclosed case head feature used on Costa Rican and Serbian military contract rifles. This required an extractor slot cut into the barrel and made barrel fitting more difficult (and costly) but allowed the case head to be seated more deeply. The rim segment above and below the ejector slot in the bolt face does not protrude above the rest of the rim like it does in the convention GEW98 bolt face. In the Speed et al. book the only two cartridges listed with a 7.7 mm land diameter in the two factory dimension tables they reproduce from 1925/1926 are the 8.15x46R and the .303 (British). They show 7.84/7.85 land diameter for J bore 8mm's. So, a bit of uncertainty still. It may be a .318 bore 8x57J with a tight bore or it could be more exotic. Definately a chamber cast would be a good idea. The thread running now on Mauser contract left overs and civil market in Germany may relate to this barreled action.

 

Wehrmanns Gewehr, Bolt face, etc.

The correct commercial Mauser WMGew. has a Bolt with a claw type extractor similar to that of a P14 ( raised chunky claw) for Rimmed cases...NOT the flat wide claw of Rimless (Mauser) cases.
The WMGs are sometimes found with the WRONG Bolt, their original bolt having been removed/lost, etc, and then the "souveniring" taker, just putting in a Normal Gew98 Bolt ( I have one such, a Kiel Naval Dockyard ("DWK") WMG-98 ( Mauser, 1908 mfg) with a normal Gew98 bolt in it...the mismatch is understandable, as apart from the Commercial "BU" proofs,on the recieiver, the only other indicator is the modified rear sight markings ( stars at two of the ranges) to allow the Lange sights to be used with the 8,15 cartridge.

Also, the indicated Bore diameter, 7,7mm, is the correct Bore for a 8,15 rifle ( 7,8s are also known.) The Military ( Gew98 Bore) is in the range 7,89-7,94. The very tight bore in the W MG is because of the use of both cast lead and lightly jacketed proj. in the 8,15 Cartridge, and to avoid "re-chambering" (illegally) to normal 7,9mm Patrone ( the Military cartridge.).

The stock will usually be a pre -W W I ( no finger groove) Commercial stock, with the MWF intertwined Logo on the Butt, and a marking disk...possibly the 1920s-30s rifles could have the W W I "Ferrule" ( donut) thru the stock, and stock finger grooves).

A Brazilian M1908 stock is a good substitute for a Mauser Commercial stock ( except for the "WFM" Logo)---same quality wood, etc, but a good WW I stock ( either type) will do for a 1920s era WMG.

Don't even consider any other calibre unless the rifle has been
Bubba'ed.
I had to adapt mine by making my own "semi-rimless" 8,15x46(S)R cases, turning the rims down so that they fit the "Normal" bolt face of the replacement bolt, and deepening the extractor groove...they now feed properly and from the magazine. Cases made from 30/30 Win. cases, fire-formed.

A shame, really, that the Bolt as shown in the Pic is actually a Mismatch ( either the whole bolt, or the extractor.) To test out this problem, take a 30/30 case, with complete rim, and
"try fit" it in the bolt face recess, without the extractor. If it fits, and a .30/06 or 7,9mm cases is sloppy, then you have a 8,15 Bolt face ( ie, the Correct Bolt.) Then Look in the Breech, at the Barrel breech face...if there is a deep extractor recess, like a British P14 or a SMLE , for a chunky claw, then the rifle is a true WMGewehr. So then the obvious problem is the extractor...I don't know of any sources of correct WMG98 extractors, BUT (bIG BUT) a P14 extractor MAY work with a little fitting to dimensions of the claw???? (use an Arkansas stone only). BTW , a correct W MG bolt will have either BU or BUG proofs on the square root of the Bolt handle, an incorrect bolt (Military,) will not ( only the Beschussadler, or a nonmatching number. ONly in the cases of a non-matching "commercial" bolt will there possibly be also BU etc. proofs, but numbers will be non-matching.

Get back to me either across this board, or directly at info@ avballistics.com.au for further developments.

best regards,
Doc AV
(Even with a "Wrong Bolt/Extractor" it's a great rifle...mine shoots 3 inch groups, off-hand, Schuetzen style ( separated cartridge components) at 100 metres ( cast lead .32/40 projectiles).

AV Ballistics
Brisbane, Australia.

 

Back in the 8.15 business.

Your bolt is very likely original but Doc AV is very likely right about the extractor. In the Speed et al. Mauser sporting rifles book they show three forms of bolt heads set up for the 8.15x46R round and your bolt face matches the picture on page 168 of the early bolt for a repeater. The other bolt face in the picture is for a single shot and has a rim completely around the face of the bolt (no need to slip the rim under the extractor hook loading from the magazine). Later in the book (page 182) they show two bolt faces for single shots with a cut in the rim aligned with the bolt guide rib (one bolt shown doesn't have a guide rib) for a really beefed up extractor. The early extractor doesn't appear as thick (here I have to admit I have never handled a rifle with this early design- only examples with the bolt face rim cut for the really beefy extractor) and so I am speculating that it might be possible to make a workable extractor from a conventional one that would be strong enough if you remember to always load from the magazine so you are not snapping the extractor over a case rim in the chamber. I think this last habit may be why they built up the extractor so much on the single shots. You would have to measure the width of the extractor slot cut in the barrel to know how much to reduce the exttractor. Regular model 98 extractors are cheap to experiment or you might try Doc AV's P14 extractor. The Brazilian stocks are available and need only have the longer bayonet bar installed to look correct from a distance. Good luck with this.

 

Did Bohler make barrels for German issue Gew 98's? I have a Gew 98 that has been re-barreled, the barrel is marked Bo 13. I always assumed that this was Bohler, maybe not. It is still in 7.92x57, not a sporting caliber. Here are some pics, could not get the BO 13 to come out clearly. The receiver is Mauser 1898, it is mainly mis-matched, but the only 98 dated one I have seen for sale. The rear sight is the updated 400 meter sight.

 

Nateg513...... very interesting Gew 98 and deserving of it's own thread. I'm sure folks would love to see some more photos of this early dated Gew 98.