I "defend myrself against someone who is potentially trying to kill me" with JHP in my .45, you do know they make those, don't ya?

I launch 230's @ 1044fps, 185's @ 1200fps


How come the 9mmP fans are so insistent on comparing apples to pumpkins?

Apples-to-Apples anyone?????

 

i always like the big one's,the big one's!a 9mm might expand,but a .45 will never shrink!

 

Any handgun cartridge starting with a 4 is much better than any handgun cartridge starting with a 9 in my opinion.

i always like the big one's,the big one's!a 9mm might expand,but a .45 will never shrink!

+1. And a proper functioning HP in 45 can open up to almost the size of the base of 12 gauge brass.
I would only have concern about using a 45 FMJ over a 9MM HP when over penetration is a deep concern. Then I may opt for the 9mm jhp.
The 9mm is a good round. No doubt. It has been proven to be. But the 45 is still superior in stopping power.
But when all is said and done, it all depends on how well you can handle your weapon, and place your shots. One solid hit in the vitals from a 9mm is better than two misses from a 45.

 

.45 fmj always .



FIVESHOT
____________________

 

I will take my 90 grain gold dot 9mm handload over a 45 FMJ any day that I have to carry concealed. If its just a shootout, I will use my plr-16 as the handgun, which is "none of the above" I suppose.

 

M1911's, defending the USA for 101 years.

 

I asked this because of the reputation of the 45 ACP as a one shot stopper, even in FMJ. Was just wondering if a 9mm Federal Hydroshock Jacketed Hollow Point would have equal or greater stoping power VS a 45 ACP in FMJ...

I would assume a quality Jacketed Hollow Point in 45 ACP is quite devastating!

 

If you only get 1 shot, bigger and heavier is superior in a handgun --- because its not possible to get enough velocity out of reasonably sized handguns to use energy as the killing source. This however begs one to consider the 50 AE as your go-to gun.... where does it stop? You can get a pistol that shoots 45-70 too, if you only get one shot, why not use a cannon?


The real problem here is the concept of stopping power. It is a meaningless term --- if you do not hit the heart, spine, or brain, the victim of a gunshot will have the time to shoot back -- is even likely to survive. People have survived multiple hits from 45s and 9s. People have died from 1 hit of a 22 or 25. A certain gungrabber has survived a 9mm to the brain, but she could not have fought back from that, she was down and out. The 45 may or may not have been fatal with the same shot placement. A .22 probably would have been equal incapacitation.

 

 

Don't forget 9MM ball vs .45 hp too...

 

I keep 230 gr. Black Talons in my 45 and never leave home without it.

 

Wise choice.

 

Off topic, I know.But let's not forget the lowly .357 mag, with 125gr. jhps. Or the .40 cal. S&W.
Wendell

 

I am not planning to shoot anybody unless i feel he intends to harm me or mine. That said, i have both a couple of 9mm autos (actually, five if you count the three 380s as 9mms) and a 1911A1. At the usual handgun ranges and presuming I haven't forgotten how to shoot where I want to, whichever one is handy will be expected to do fine. But - I would take the 45 as first choice.

So far in my 69 years, i have used a handgun to shoot precisely one person. Used the 45, it did fine.

 

I am not planning to shoot anybody unless i feel he intends to harm me or mine. That said, i have both a couple of 9mm autos (actually, five if you count the three 380s as 9mms) and a 1911A1. At the usual handgun ranges and presuming I haven't forgotten how to shoot where I want to, whichever one is handy will be expected to do fine. But - I would take the 45 as first choice. So far in my 69 years, i have used a handgun to shoot precisely one person. Used the 45, it did fine.

Finally, I can agree with Clyde on something. He is dead on the money. He is competent with all his pistols so he can make the shots count but of that menu, the first choice is 45 acp. I have used the 45 acp with issue FMJ ammo several times and its been 100% effective but I also could shoot and put the round where it needed to be. A miss is a miss be it 9mm or 45acp.

As to the platform: choose the one you trust and fits your hand. I prefer 1911 over my HK USP in 45acp or a Glock in any caliber. I can shoot all 3 fine. Pick the pistol you trust and shoot 45 acp if you can. If you can't, shoot 40S&W. Time may come when you are elderly and can only handle a 9mm... if so, that only means you place the rounds properly on the threat and double tap him for extra love.

 

My advice...just follow the lead of the USMC. .45 acp.

 

do not follow the mil in self defence ammo choice they follow rules of erngagment..we use what works

My advice...just follow the lead of the USMC. .45 acp.

 

In my neck of the woods, if we were to use the gage of "what ammo is still somewhat available" as being the "least" used, it would be 9mm and 40 cal (absolutely none around anywhere). 45 still seems to be in some limited supply. Maybe that's just simply a function of the quantity of weapons out there to shoot the 9 and 40 vs. the 45. Kinda seems to be the "younger generations" caliber (speaking as one of the "older generation") ;-)))

 

For my self and sticking to the original premiss I tend to prefer the 45, mostly because I shoot 45 better than 9. Even though I have hit head size targets at 100yrds with both. Either round could conceivably over penetrate or not depending on any number of variables that can or cannot be predicted. That being said My standard answer for this kind of question is" which ever one is in my hand first is the one I prefer to use".

 

45 hands down.

 

Study the history of 9mm performance, including the vast array of rounds that have been made for it.
When LEO started the "great migration" from wheelguns to semi-auto back in the 70's, the big push went for 9mm, especially when the first double stack magazines came into production and "spray and pray" was introduced. Large volume of shots for those who can't shoot accurately (most LEO).
It wasn't long before actual results of 9mm started proving more than inadequate for knockdown. Ammunition makers rushed to introduce all kinds of different loads for 9mm, from lightweight high velocity to an unbelievable assortment of JHP. Results continued to pile up. It wasn't working.
9mm is accurate, if you practice. 9mm has lighter recoil, great for the small handed people and the influx of female officers. 9mm compacts were great for plainclothes officers.
It was the Miami shootout with the FBI, perp hit 15 times but survived long enough to kill 4 FBI agents, that finally lead to a study for a more effective round and FBI switching to .40.
As results continued to pile up in LEO involved shooting, the second great migration was on late 80's and 90's with a conversion to .40 and .45ACP.

Personal experience with 9mm as LEO. Perfect shot placement produced "neurological incapacitation", the desired objective, but murder lived to serve 5 yrs and get out on parole.
Needless to say, we changed ammo within a week. Following several other LEO incidents and poor performance, department went to .45ACP just as I retired.
I still have a 9mm but only shoot it now and then as a good target paper punching gun. I would never carry it again.
As a Paramedic, seen and treated several 9mm shooting victims. A couple survived what should have been hands down fatal by any stretch. As well, have seen 1 shot .45ACP DOA.

.40 has a pretty good performance record but sharper recoil some people don't adjust well to. Learn to "ride" .45ACP and you will find it more comfortable. I've trained tiny females who took to a full frame 1911 like a duck to water. Newer compact .45ACP are just as compact and easy to handle as many 9mm.

My carry choice is .45ACP Warthog and I stuff it with my standard round nose 235gr cast lead reloads. Never had a FTF, jam or other problem with them (as opposed to some JHP), velocity is consistent and accuracy very good. I know where they will go when I pull the trigger and I shoot them in vast quantity on a regular basis. As opposed to very expensive factory JHP I can't afford to drop 200-300 rounds in a range session, I practice routinely with the reloads and am intimately familiar with their POI. What the cast lead does to intimate objects and degree of expansion leaves me no doubt they would be more than adequate for 1 shot knockdown. I trust them completely to do the job! If I should need more than 10+1, I'll be running away fast!

 

It was the Miami shootout with the FBI, perp hit 15 times but survived long enough to kill 4 FBI agents, that finally lead to a study for a more effective round and FBI switching to .40.

That whole situation of blaming the weapon for the poor performance of the FBI Agents was a cover-up. The bank robber's shots were fatal hits while the FBI's hits were non-critical. It amounted to who could shoot better. Instead of the FBI placing the blame where if belonged - poor firearms training, the weapons were chosen for the blame. As a result of the shootout, Congress gave the FBI bunches of money "to solve and fix the problem." Instead of bolstering the firearms training program, which would have spent very little of the money Congress gave the FBI, they launched into a large, very expensive program to come up with a "better" handgun caliber. The 10mm caliber resulted from this program and this was to be the "savior" of the FBI's handgun program. After spending many years and millions of dollars, the 10mm round is considered to be a "dead" round. I'm sure the FBI's developed 10mm round was the instigator of the .40S&W round which is now considered to be a very popular caliber.

 

This goes back quite a few years but I recall an article by Ayoob said that a survey of police one shot stops had the 9mm at 74%, the .45 at 81%, no info on the bullets. The numbers are approximate but the proportion is roughly correct. It may be influenced by other factors, such as gun enthusiasts preferring the .45 ACP.

 

This goes back quite a few years but I recall an article by Ayoob said that a survey of police one shot stops had the 9mm at 74%, the .45 at 81%, no info on the bullets. The numbers are approximate but the proportion is roughly correct. It may be influenced by other factors, such as gun enthusiasts preferring the .45 ACP.

This is around the numbers I have seen time and again as well. However there are just too many variables and an unknown margin of error there. If the margin of error is 3% (fairly common value for this type of data), the two calibers may be very close. It is simply hard to tell, some of the 45 data is very old -- back when people could shoot and hit their target, not to mention leaps and bounds in medical procedures to save the person (thus not a 1 shot KILL if they lived) and faster access to hospitals etc. We need a comparison of 2 modern PDs in similar nasty cities, one with 9mm and one with 45s, but such data does not exist.

The miami incident led to the creation of the 10mm which was too stout for many officers (gender aside, its brutal in a plastic pistol, and the 45 acp is no joke in a plastic gun either, some modern carry 45s have pretty rough recoil). The .40 resulted from trying to turn the 10mm back into a 9mm. The 357 sig is probably the best of all this cartridge development effort. About all we discovered from all this is that to hit the perp harder, we need more recoil / force, which is not always a useful approach for all shooters esp organized law enforcement.

The 45 is an excellent compromise point for a big diameter, hard hitting round with low recoil. But if you only get one shot as a LEO, we need to start buying our officers 50AE desert eagles backed up with 454 snubbie revolvers.

 

Double stacks were first into production in the 1970s? What about the Grand Puissance, into production in 1935 and widely used every since? 13 rounds, double-stack, in the handle and another up the spout?

 

9mm hollowpoint by far!

The Miami shootout was mostly caused by poor tactical procedures, and since they could not blaim themselves, they blaimed the caliber. That 9mm that went through a door and hit Platt (or Mattix, cannot remember) and went through his arm and ruptured his heart probably never would have made it through the door if it was a 45. They don't all fall to hardball!

We tested some pistol calibers against washing machines we found dumped in the AZ desert, and the only caliber that had worse penetration than the 45 was the 32acp. The 9mm was pretty good, the 357 Sig was the best, it even outdid the 10mm. My buddy, who is the 45 enthusiast, was pretty bummed. It was also the only pistol that jammed on us, which is about par for what I have seen from 1911's.

If 45 was that great, all the police officers in this country would use it. A lot of them did, and went back to something else.

 

Let that be a lesson to all of you in fear of attack from rampaging household appliances - .45 just ain't gonna cut it. For soft & squishy live assailants, it will prove to be worthy of the task, especially for household application where overpenetration by "hotter" calibers is a safety concern.

 

And the moral of this story is that penetration effectiveness is the enemy of killing effectiveness. All those simplistic "tests" of shooting through appliances, cars and pine boards are a waste of time. No service pistol light enough to carry in daily use can both penetrate well and have a high kill probability. If you want to shoot through a car body and kill, use a weapon heavy enough to do both jobs, like a rifle.

"No bullet which goes through an animal can be of much use,"
"No sportsmen the author has yet met with desire to sink ironclads, or to use their rifles for girder-punching."
W.W. Greener, The Gun 9th Edition, 1910

 

Despite what many of its fans believe, the .45 is not the "Hammer of Thor" that will knock someone over with a glancing hit. Even with a .45 shot placement is vital and that's why all my carry and home defense guns are 9mms loaded with Remington 124 gr.+P Golden Sabers. I can shoot them more accurately and faster than any of my .45s (yes I own a number of them), the guns are lighter for carry and hold more rounds. I know there is some trade off but I figure the pluses outweigh the negatives.

Just my 2/100s of a $ worth.

 

As stated by a couple guys, placement is most important.

Survival is an important aspect overall.

.45 is best to assure that.

I have talked to several SOG guys who carried 9mms across the fence-they were not pleased with the results-even against 90 lb 3rd world guys.

Illinois is about to allow CCW-none of my relics are appropriate and I bought a SA Micro Mini in .45 ACP,

1st modern gun I ever bought.

Hope I never have opportunity to use it.

 

As stated by a couple guys, placement is most important.

Survival is an important aspect overall.

.45 is best to assure that.

I have talked to several SOG guys who carried 9mms across the fence-they were not pleased with the results-even against 90 lb 3rd world guys.

Illinois is about to allow CCW-none of my relics are appropriate and I bought a SA Micro Mini in .45 ACP,

1st modern gun I ever bought.

Hope I never have opportunity to use it.

+1 on that. Last had occasion to shoot at a person in 1969, and if i die without ever having another occasion to do that, it will be entirely soon enough.

 

Survival is an important aspect overall.

.45 is best to assure that.

+1 I think I will join the .45 proponents on this.

All studies and comparisons aside, I personally just trust the .45 more to stop an attack than the 9mm.

BTW, I don't think shooting at junked washing machines is a very good metric for comparing the stopping power of different calibers.

 

I dissagree only in that we don't seem to be interpreting the data properly. In that any round that penetrated still had some energy when it came through where as the ones that did not had no energy left because they transfered all they had to the target. It could be said that the rounds that had the ability to penetrate did not have the ability to transfer energy as efficiently as the ones that did not penetrate.

 

No matter what your caliber of choice is ...
Comes down to placement and transfer of kinetic energy. "Incapacitation" and "lethality" are independent and totally different subjects.
Whether or not the attacker eventually dies of his wounds is irrelevant to stopping the attack and neutralizing the threat, in the shortest time and with the least number of rounds.
"Neurological Incapacitation", (Golden Triangle), delivering sufficient kinetic energy to the central nervous system to disrupt it and put it out of commission (turn off the lights) is the primary goal.

Learning to shoot the Golden Triangle is difficult for many people unless you are highly practiced and accurate. Golden Triangle also requires practiced and dedicated shift away from Center Of Mass.
COM is, most basically, the most time and cost efficient method to train a large number of (mostly marginal)(LEO) shooters to hit the largest portion of the target likely to eventually result in lethality or incapacitation from blood loss. A .22 between the eyes is more likely to result in instant incapacitation than a 9mm or .45 that passes through the chest without hitting anything vital.

I have seen enough examples of GSW with various calibers, from those who died from a .22 to those who survived .357. In some instances, shot placement and path of the bullet should have been fatal, but it wasn't. Performance enters in. A JHP that fails to expand and passes clean through with minimal damage fails. That has been a perpetual problem since JHP was introduced and is still a study in progress. Velocity, mass and theoretical kinetic energy all make an interesting debate, and look great in blocks of ballistic gelatin slo-mo vids, but actual real life results are often much to the contrary.

The question comes down to will the attacker live long enough to continue to do harm or present a threat after being shot or will the shot immediately neutralize the threat? Much depends on where you put it. It may be eventually lethal, or not. Lethality does not matter when the objective is incapacitation.
End conclusion: Know your gun and how to shoot well with it! There is no substitute for practice and no such thing as too much practice. There is no substitute for proper training.
If the gun doesn't suit you well, or you have difficulty mastering it ... buy another!
If you claim you can't afford the necessary ammo to practice with it, or don't routinely practice, don't expect good results should you ever have to use it.
Always remember: When the SHTF, you will do what you are trained to do in the manner you are trained to do it!

Son and I dropped 300rds of .45ACP yesterday. The majority were Golden Triangle at different distances. The remainder were precision shots at small targets at long distance to maintain accuracy and aiming practice. The session included various draw and fire "drills" from different positions. That is, at minimum, a monthly exercise!