Whats the market price of a fully militarized Tiger Dragunov with all Russian parts but with two Russian 10 round mags like one in photo? How rare are they to find with military stocks and flashiders?
SVD Tiger Dragunov
Russian Spetznaz
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"...Russian made SVD Dragunov are better quality and more accurate than the Chinese Clones..."
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I've handled many a Russian Dragunov SVD rifle and have a Chinese NDM-86 (civilian model of the military Type 79). The Russian rifle is certainly nice and has a nicer finish than the NDM-86 which is kind of a crappy paint-type finish. But as far as accuracy, it's extremely subjective. A blanket statement about the Russian rifle being more accurate than the Chinese rifle seems to be slightly biased due to it being Russian.
The term "clone" is pretty general and could also apply to the Tigr rifles, as well. We could start at the beginning and see just what's a clone and what's not. Let's take the original military version, the Dragunov SVD, first. In later years, there were minor upgrades, etc. to the rifle that was being issued and fielded to Russia's military force with an additional Dragunov SVDS (folding buttstock version) created. Afterwards, the Izhmash factory began manufacturing SVD's for commercial export which about a 100 or so were imported by KBI. They were the late-pattern rifles that were devoid of the lightening cuts on the sides of the receiver that were common to the older military SVD's. Depending on one's vantage point, those could be "clones" or not but I'd lean on the side of not. Now, enter China. Some say they received several Russian Dragunov SVD's by either a third-country or captured them. Whatever the means, they may have reproduced SVD's by either re-marking early ones, receiving lots of parts from a third-country, or some backdoor deal with Izhmash. Regardless, they made their own SVD, the Type 79, for their military force. Then later, Norinco (which is a general term for a wing of Chinese military arms production) decided to create a line of Type 79 rifles for commercial export, just like Izhmash did. Depending upon how you look at it, the KBI-imported rifles are "clones" of the Russian military Dragunov SVD; the NDM-86 rifles are "clones" of the Chinese military Type 79. Both are made in the same military factories but were part of a run specifically designated for commercial sale. It could probably be said the Chinese military Type 79 is a "clone" of the Russian Dragunov SVD. I'd say the answer is both "Yes" and "No." "Yes" because it's a copy of the original design; "No" because the Chinese later incorporated its own scope and parts for their rifle. But I'd consider the Russian Tigr as a "clone" of the Dragunov SVD due to its specific designation as a commercial rifle and unqiue design for the commercial market, even though it uses the same Izhmash parts as the military Dragunov SVD.
It might be a little surprising to some folks that a lot of the Type 79 rifles, as well as commercially imported NDM-86 rifles, were made with Russian parts. You'll notice on the Chinese NDM-86 rifles there's a Russian rear sight leaf. There's even a member on another board that has a Chinese NDM-86 that has the usual Norinco "number in the triangle" stamp under the receiver. But what's interesting is that it appears to have been stamped over a removed Russian "arrow in the triangle" stamp. I've heard that, at least in the case of the earliest Type 79's, they were built from Russian parts. I can somewhat understand the possibility for that. It would make since to use Russian parts until identical ones could be manufactured domestically. Unfortunately, we'll never know what the real deal was with that since the Chinese won't talk about it and Russian arsenal record keeping for that era is sketchy, at best. It's difficult to establish specific patterns or era of manufacture for many Kalashnikov rifles from the Russian factories.
Certainly, the Chinese military was fond of "reverse engineering" weapons for their own benefit and often do a "fair to great" job at it. Look at the Polytech and Norinco-made M14 rifles. Not perfect, but not terribly bad, either. They definately did a number on the Type 56 (Kalashnikov) rifle by taking a Russian Kalashnikov and re-designing it to suit their purposes. Some of the re-designed features might even be considered superior to the original Russian design - thicker receiver, integral bayonet (on some models), smoother FCG, etc. I don't know if I'd agree wholeheartedly on that but they incorporated some rather decent upgrades they felt necessary for a battle rifle in their military. And all without a license or agreement with the Russians at the time.
In essence, I think the argument of whether the Russian Dragunov SVD is "more accurate" in terms of shooting than the Chinese NDM-86/Type 79 is moot. It really depends upon so many factors in that comparison (quality of ammunition, environmental conditions, age/condition of weapon, skill of shooter, etc.). A skilled, experienced marksman with a used Russian Mosin Nagant 91/30 that he's extremely familiar with might be able to "out-shoot" an average shooter using a new Russian Dragunov SVD he's somewhat familiar with if both used the same, exact ammunition. It's very subjective.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I've handled many a Russian Dragunov SVD rifle and have a Chinese NDM-86 (civilian model of the military Type 79). The Russian rifle is certainly nice and has a nicer finish than the NDM-86 which is kind of a crappy paint-type finish. But as far as accuracy, it's extremely subjective. A blanket statement about the Russian rifle being more accurate than the Chinese rifle seems to be slightly biased due to it being Russian.
The term "clone" is pretty general and could also apply to the Tigr rifles, as well. We could start at the beginning and see just what's a clone and what's not. Let's take the original military version, the Dragunov SVD, first. In later years, there were minor upgrades, etc. to the rifle that was being issued and fielded to Russia's military force with an additional Dragunov SVDS (folding buttstock version) created. Afterwards, the Izhmash factory began manufacturing SVD's for commercial export which about a 100 or so were imported by KBI. They were the late-pattern rifles that were devoid of the lightening cuts on the sides of the receiver that were common to the older military SVD's. Depending on one's vantage point, those could be "clones" or not but I'd lean on the side of not. Now, enter China. Some say they received several Russian Dragunov SVD's by either a third-country or captured them. Whatever the means, they may have reproduced SVD's by either re-marking early ones, receiving lots of parts from a third-country, or some backdoor deal with Izhmash. Regardless, they made their own SVD, the Type 79, for their military force. Then later, Norinco (which is a general term for a wing of Chinese military arms production) decided to create a line of Type 79 rifles for commercial export, just like Izhmash did. Depending upon how you look at it, the KBI-imported rifles are "clones" of the Russian military Dragunov SVD; the NDM-86 rifles are "clones" of the Chinese military Type 79. Both are made in the same military factories but were part of a run specifically designated for commercial sale. It could probably be said the Chinese military Type 79 is a "clone" of the Russian Dragunov SVD. I'd say the answer is both "Yes" and "No." "Yes" because it's a copy of the original design; "No" because the Chinese later incorporated its own scope and parts for their rifle. But I'd consider the Russian Tigr as a "clone" of the Dragunov SVD due to its specific designation as a commercial rifle and unqiue design for the commercial market, even though it uses the same Izhmash parts as the military Dragunov SVD.
It might be a little surprising to some folks that a lot of the Type 79 rifles, as well as commercially imported NDM-86 rifles, were made with Russian parts. You'll notice on the Chinese NDM-86 rifles there's a Russian rear sight leaf. There's even a member on another board that has a Chinese NDM-86 that has the usual Norinco "number in the triangle" stamp under the receiver. But what's interesting is that it appears to have been stamped over a removed Russian "arrow in the triangle" stamp. I've heard that, at least in the case of the earliest Type 79's, they were built from Russian parts. I can somewhat understand the possibility for that. It would make since to use Russian parts until identical ones could be manufactured domestically. Unfortunately, we'll never know what the real deal was with that since the Chinese won't talk about it and Russian arsenal record keeping for that era is sketchy, at best. It's difficult to establish specific patterns or era of manufacture for many Kalashnikov rifles from the Russian factories.
Certainly, the Chinese military was fond of "reverse engineering" weapons for their own benefit and often do a "fair to great" job at it. Look at the Polytech and Norinco-made M14 rifles. Not perfect, but not terribly bad, either. They definately did a number on the Type 56 (Kalashnikov) rifle by taking a Russian Kalashnikov and re-designing it to suit their purposes. Some of the re-designed features might even be considered superior to the original Russian design - thicker receiver, integral bayonet (on some models), smoother FCG, etc. I don't know if I'd agree wholeheartedly on that but they incorporated some rather decent upgrades they felt necessary for a battle rifle in their military. And all without a license or agreement with the Russians at the time.
In essence, I think the argument of whether the Russian Dragunov SVD is "more accurate" in terms of shooting than the Chinese NDM-86/Type 79 is moot. It really depends upon so many factors in that comparison (quality of ammunition, environmental conditions, age/condition of weapon, skill of shooter, etc.). A skilled, experienced marksman with a used Russian Mosin Nagant 91/30 that he's extremely familiar with might be able to "out-shoot" an average shooter using a new Russian Dragunov SVD he's somewhat familiar with if both used the same, exact ammunition. It's very subjective.
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Chris....good to see you over here!
I don't get over here much at all unless someone posts a link here from another forum and I wander over. It's good to have some more outlets for great discussion on our hobbies. I like the AK's but it's nice to delve into other, more specific platforms such as the Dragunov and its variants, and hear what other, more knowledgeable folks have to say. Good stuff.
I agree with the first question you asked Russian Spetznaz. I asked this question to RS earlier "How many SVD's do you own and how well do they shoot 7N1?" and never got an answer.
I really think the present day value associated with both the commercially imported Russian Dragunov SVD and the Chinese NDM-86 has been inflated way too high for what they truly are. Particulary the Russian SVD. And to me, the lack of the very cool, early-style lightening cuts on the receiver turn me off of them. There are definately other military-style DMR weapons out there that can probably do a lot better than the SVD in terms of accuracy and durability but the thing I like about the SVD is simply that unique design which still screams of a Cold War weapon to me. I think both versions shoot probably about the same if used by the same person with the same ammunition. If dressed-up in Russian furniture, a Chinese NDM-86 is a great representation of an early/mid-style Russian SVD.
Yeah, you are 100% right. For what you get you pay too much. My M1A and especially my Hk-91 are far more accurate and pratical DMR/sniper rifles. But I look at it this way: I have a 68' and 69' Camaro. There are newer cars that handle better, ride better, get better gas mileage, and do 0-60 faster and at a cheaper price. But they just don't have the looks and charisma that a 1st Generation Camaro has. I feel the same about my SVD's.
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40 Posts
Could not have said it better myself.
I remember reading a Swat magazine test of the NMD 86 by Gary Paul Johnson years ago. He got one inch/100 yard groups out of the 308. He reported the rifle was well made and a very close copy of a Russian SVD. Radford reports a lot of accuracy testing in these boards and I believe his data.
I think folks that are skilled shooters and can get a few rounds downrange to climatize to the weapon could probably be very good with any weapon. I'm nowhere near that level but it would, indeed, be neat to have a professional marksman spend a week or two with the rifle and see what he/she had to say about it.
Tigr with the same barrel lenth as the SVD
Hi all:
Everyone here says "Tigr barrel is shorter than the one of the SVD". I have a Tigr with a 620 mm barrel, the same as the SVD. The handguard and the stock are the same synthetic ones with long holes as the SVD. So you can find 2 models: the 530mm that has the same barrel lenth as the SVDS, and the 620mm, that has the same barrel lenth as the SVD. Within the Tigr, you can find several models, with different combinations of stock and hanguards, in wood and plastic. My Tigr has a medium lenth flash supressor. (in my country flash supressors are legal).
greetings
Hi all:
Everyone here says "Tigr barrel is shorter than the one of the SVD". I have a Tigr with a 620 mm barrel, the same as the SVD. The handguard and the stock are the same synthetic ones with long holes as the SVD. So you can find 2 models: the 530mm that has the same barrel lenth as the SVDS, and the 620mm, that has the same barrel lenth as the SVD. Within the Tigr, you can find several models, with different combinations of stock and hanguards, in wood and plastic. My Tigr has a medium lenth flash supressor. (in my country flash supressors are legal).
greetings
agreed . i have the same experience with the several i own... the ndm 308 is a 1/2 moa weapon (on perfect days a little better) with black hills 168 and a ten power scope. too bad black hills does not make 54r.. the calif tiger is a 2 moa weapon although i shot 1 moa once.(three shot groups) barrel warm.. i am tunning the ndm 7.62 in using a cold bore sighting procedure ... one round ,an adjustment , cleaning and home.. back the next day , one round , an adjustment , cleaning and home. if i can get a 1/2 moa cold bore group ( three rounds over three days same target) i will be estatic and post it here.
Good way to test it's accuracy. Too bad I never got the "patience gene"-which why I would never be a good sniper. When I was stationed at Ft Devens in the late 80's the 10th SFG(A) sniper committee invited some high speed low drag guys to shoot and they were firing one round, waiting a half hour, cleaning, their bores, then firing again. Round total? Five. Of course they didn't miss either.
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11 Posts
Yes...there are many factory variations of the Tiger rifle, with different combinations of flash suppressors, buttstocks, handguards, gas systems (adjustable and non-adjustable), barrel lengths, folding (ala SVDS) vs. fixed stock (ala SVD) and calibers (7.62 x 54R, .308, 30-06, 9.3 x 64). And in fact if you get one from the Legion (similar to a factory custom shop) division of Izhmash you can get them in different finishes with engraving, fancy inlay, and a whole load of different stocksets to choose from.
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334 Posts
Welcome Rapaz, just what wonderful country are you in where these delightful Tigers can be had?
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404 Posts
It's more than just barrel length. The SVDS carbine (paratrooper/tanker whatever) has that shorter barrel but it's also thicker. I don't believe the currently sold Tigers with the short barrel have the heavier SVDS barrel. But if I'm wrong please let me know.
The other thing about SVD vs Tiger barrels is the fact that the Russians install that "step" in the chamber of the Tiger. It's a slightly narrower ring at the neck of the cartridge that stamps the ejected case. This is so forensic ID can be made on cases fired from a military SVD or a commercial Tigr hunting rifle.
This "step" is not present on US imports as it was a later design change. Not sure if it's present on any of their export models but I would think it would be.
The other thing about SVD vs Tiger barrels is the fact that the Russians install that "step" in the chamber of the Tiger. It's a slightly narrower ring at the neck of the cartridge that stamps the ejected case. This is so forensic ID can be made on cases fired from a military SVD or a commercial Tigr hunting rifle.
This "step" is not present on US imports as it was a later design change. Not sure if it's present on any of their export models but I would think it would be.
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4,864 Posts
The Tigr barrel actually is as thick as the regular SVD barrel. The SVDS barrel is thicker and also longer (565mm) than the short Tigr barrel (530mm).
Berg is right about the "step" as my Tigr made in 2006 has one. This feature was added in January 1995 in accordance with the requirement of the MIA of RF, says the manual. It doesn't make the rifle any worse but it undoubtedly decreases the life of reloadable brass.
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Tigr - SVD - changeability of parts
I'd like to ask if it's possible to change Tigr 03 "Monte Carlo" wood stock and replace it with regular SVD wood or plastic stock by simply unscrewing one and puting in place the other or it's not so easy?
Here is the picture of "Monte Carlo" stock.
![Image]()
I'd like to ask if it's possible to change Tigr 03 "Monte Carlo" wood stock and replace it with regular SVD wood or plastic stock by simply unscrewing one and puting in place the other or it's not so easy?
Here is the picture of "Monte Carlo" stock.
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1,393 Posts
Might be worth noting, that the latest variations of Izmash Tigr that have been available in Europe for a couple of years have adjustable gas system and all the previous "military parts". I have a year 2003 version of this rifle and the out of the box the only remaining difference to Russian military issue SVDS was the barrel - which is slightly shorter and has different rifling (good thing btw - it stabilises also bit heavier bullets quite nicely).
Shooting results that I have gathered from my fellow Tigr shooters in here suggest that 2 MOA is typical accuracy with cheap surplus or commercial ammunition and some have succeeded getting 1 MOA accuracy with ammunition of their own making.
Jarkko
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