Cuba...

VZ52s in Africa probably went to the warehouse as the ammunition became less available, I'd bet. Nicaraguan VZ52 either got buried, dumped, or apparently bought up by CAI and dipped in black pebbly substance... Not many VZ52s made in the greater scheme of things, and the Czechoslovakian Peoples' Republic surplussed them when the Warsaw Pact mandated 7.62x39-mm and 7.62x54-mmR as service cartridges... So off they went to CSSR allies along with the LMGs in the same caliber. The VZ52s carried by guards in the Czech Republic don't even shoot. They're just drill rifles for parades.

 

Thanks Dave for the information, but what I am specifically zeroing in at is where is the ammo? I know pretty much know the history of the VZ52. Been collecting them since the early 1990's. Have 10 in my collection. It is the surplus 7.62x45 that is the biggest reason the rifle is not more popular as a shootable milsurp. Very scarce and expensive to purchase. There may be millions of rounds in South America, Czechoslovakia, Africa, Vietnam, Syria, Egypt, Israel, and a host of other countries that used the rifle. Someone must know something about where it is. I cannot believe it is all gone from these countries.

 

I was getting at the dearth of ammunition in the caliber.

With production in the 7.62x45-mm cartridge lasting from, what? 1952 until 1957? do I have that right? You've got the rifles and the machine guns. What was the total manufactured? How many millions of cartridges went with them when they were shipped out?

Angola? Could be some ammo there.
Biafra/Nigeria--don't think that's available.
Cuba? Bet that is where a considerable stash still remains.
Czechoslovakia? Has it been scrapped by now? Because European, did the ammo get destroyed? Certainly for a while the getting was good for 7.62x54-mmR rimmed Russian out of Czechoslovak stocks, but all I've seen of late is commercial ammo?
Egypt/Syria/ex-UAR? Doubtful. Maybe some is still there.
Indonesian navy? Hmmm. Doesn't seem likely.
Nicaragua and Grenada? Gone.
Yemen--unavailable

Ethiopia--the guns are coming in... And we saw Ethiopian made 8mm Mauser and .30-06/ 7.62x51-mm, so presumably there may be stocks of 7.62x45-mm left... One would hope it would be imported.

Oddly, the Serbian PPU makes all sorts of obscure calibers including some really obscure obsolete cartridges. I'd agree that there should be enough of a market to make the stuff... Or Czech ammunition makers too?

I'd think surplus quantities of 7.62x45-mm would be even less common than Swiss Gewehr Patronen 7.5x55-mm, no? Again, only one nation in Europe used the stuff, but where Switzerland used the cartridge for the entire 20th Century, not so the Czechoslovakians? Five years production of the suite of arms that used the stuff, stockpiles of some indeterminate quantity of munitions for war reserve, and then replacing all of it and shipping off the rest... What are the date ranges for 7.62x45-mm ammo in your experience?

 

Czech ammo from the 1950's isn't very common in the USA. There were some limited quantities of 7.62x25 and 7.62x54r heavy ball, but it's not common at all. Most of the Czech surplus is in the 7.62x54r and 7.62x51 and is from the 1960s through the late 1980s. I don't know the reason, however, just going buy what I've observed over the last 30+ years of ammo buying.

 

Czech Ammo came into the US in pretty large quantity when the Vz52 rifles first showed up back in the late 80s or early 90's. I bought 4 or 5 of the 1200 rd cases on strippers and a few 1000rd cases without strippers in 20rd boxes. All of it was good ammo though corrosive as expected. I have no idea what happened to it after that.

As for the original stores of ammo sitting in warehouses overseas the answer is pretty simple. What didn't get sold off got destroyed or dumped. Friends who import ammo told me they looked for more of it but what little they found usually got dumped in with other stuff the govt was trying to get the UN to pay them for. The UN bought a lot of ammo and destroyed it to prevent its use by those they don't like and also to prevent its sale to us as shooters. A friend who worked for Century told me about a deal for 2 million rounds of Romanian 8mm, 5 million rounds of 7.62 tokarev and a pretty large quantity of 7.62X39 they bought. The UN went in and paid for the ammo again and blew it up. The other buyers (there were more than one) never got any money back nor any apologies from the socialists at the UN.

So my guess is the 7.62X45 which was never produced in Huge quantities was destroyed, sold off and otherwise disposed of many years ago. What little stocks remain in out of the way places like cuba and africa is probably no good from poor storage. The rifles were surplussed for a reason and with no rifles there is no need for ammo. The other guns they did keep had been converted to the X39 so why store stuff you don't need.

If the market is there someone will make ammo. I don't think the market is really big enough though. The only guns shooting that ammo are the V52s.....

Frank

 

Czech Ammo came into the US in pretty large quantity when the Vz52 rifles first showed up back in the late 80s or early 90's. I bought 4 or 5 of the 1200 rd cases on strippers and a few 1000rd cases without strippers in 20rd boxes. All of it was good ammo though corrosive as expected. I have no idea what happened to it after that.

As for the original stores of ammo sitting in warehouses overseas the answer is pretty simple. What didn't get sold off got destroyed or dumped. Friends who import ammo told me they looked for more of it but what little they found usually got dumped in with other stuff the govt was trying to get the UN to pay them for. The UN bought a lot of ammo and destroyed it to prevent its use by those they don't like and also to prevent its sale to us as shooters. A friend who worked for Century told me about a deal for 2 million rounds of Romanian 8mm, 5 million rounds of 7.62 tokarev and a pretty large quantity of 7.62X39 they bought. The UN went in and paid for the ammo again and blew it up. The other buyers (there were more than one) never got any money back nor any apologies from the socialists at the UN.

So my guess is the 7.62X45 which was never produced in Huge quantities was destroyed, sold off and otherwise disposed of many years ago. What little stocks remain in out of the way places like cuba and africa is probably no good from poor storage. The rifles were surplussed for a reason and with no rifles there is no need for ammo. The other guns they did keep had been converted to the X39 so why store stuff you don't need.

If the market is there someone will make ammo. I don't think the market is really big enough though. The only guns shooting that ammo are the V52s.....

Frank

I have a completely sealed 1200 round case of 7.62x45 I bought from Century back in 1996. I can assure you, if unopened, it is still in perfect shape. Thick galvanized metal ammo case inside and out. All seams sealed with lead solder. I think even buried it would survive very well for a long time. As for UN's buying it up and destroying to keep it out of the hands of our enemies is one thing. To deprive US citizens who like to shoot the VZ52 is another. They could have let some into this country. That is if they actually were involved in it's destruction. Somebody just tell me where it's buried and give me a shovel!!!

 

What he said!

Question: What is the latest headstamp for genuine surplus ammo that anyone has seen? Some time in the 1960s, I'd wager...

 

I've seen BXN '54, ZV'61 on stripper clips and ZV'64 headstamps. I'm sure there are more. So I know they were still making ammo in 1964. To know that much of it was just destroyed is a real shame.

 

Get up a significant group buy and petition PPU to make a run. Crowd fund pre-pay.

 

I do not think there is larger quantity of 7,62x45 ammo in private hands here in Czech republic, I guess about 10 boxes. There is one company who sells them (for export only as they are not C.I.P. marked) and visibly they do have problems with export.
I agree with Landshark928 - original boxes are perfectly sealed (I have two) and will survive for years and years...

 

FWIW, there is a summer firearms auction coming up in about 3 weeks, in Pennsylvania, that has a bunch of lots of old ammo...one of those lots may or may not be ~100 rds of 7.62x45, if anyone is interested.

Edit: Beware, however, if you go looking - this same auction has several sportered, bubba'd, and worse rifles - multiple K98k's, a SC 03a3 listed as a remington, an Enfield so bad they listed as an English M47 C...lots of painful things to see.

 

Ethiopian ammunition factory set up by Czechoslovaks, later Soviet and North Korean technical assistance, but no mention of whether 7.62x45-mm was ever made?
https://armamentresearch.com/ethiopian-30-06-7-62-x-51-mm-7-92-x-57-mm-cartridges/

As for Cuba's Comandante Ernesto Ché Guevara ammunition plant built in the '70s and '80s, a decade ago there was talk about making improvements with Russian assistance: "Chief of the Russian General Staff Gen. Nikolai Makarov said during his visit to Cuba in 2009 that modernization of the Soviet-made military equipment and training of Cuban military personnel will be the focus of Russian-Cuban military cooperation in the future."

But no idea if there would be any 7.62x45-mm ammo, which would seem highly unlikely.

We know that the CSSR sent large quantities of non-Warsaw Pact standard 9-mm SMGs and 7.62x45-mm rifles and LMGs to Cuba in 1960... How much longer did the CSSR continue to produce ammunition into the 1960s? The '70s?

Norma?
Fiocchi?
Prvi Partizan?
Sellier & Bellot?

 

At the 2020 SHOTSHOW a Czech company was hawking about 1,000,000 rds. of the 762x45. Don't know if it was vaporware or somebody bought and its on the way here.
Also at the SAMCO auction there was some 762x45 ammo. There were no virgins at that prom!!
Okrana

 

Sellier and Bellot was the main, if not only producers of 7.62x45 ammo. At least in Czechoslavakia.
The headstamp "ZV" Zbrojova Vlašim ("Vlašim Armory") (1945-1990) - Vlašim, Czechoslovakia. Zbrojova Vlašim was the nationalized name for the Sellier & Bellot plant in Prague. The S&B headstamp was reintroduced in 1983. As per Wiki.

 

I'd sure like to know more. 1,000,000 round! That would last me for a few weeks!

 

Lately shownon History channel
( Cuban Newsreels) of Cuban
Peoples Army in mid 60s with
Vz 52s...lots of them...they then went to Central Africa ( with ammo, I expect).
But large quantities remained in Cuba....a bit sent to Grenada 1980s...Since Grenada cleaned out by US, obvious remaining stocks of both Guns and Ammo is Cuba.
Doc AV

 

7,62x45

I have an early box of brass 7,62x45 for my collection (photos)

I believe that some steel cased BXN 53 or 54 was converted to 7,62x39 Soviet as
I think that some is in my collection

 

FYI, Israel never used the rifle, nor stocked/produced the ammo.

I have a pretty good collection of the 7.62x45 rounds, and my latest headstamp is ZV 67.

 

I think Doc hit it on the head. Cuba and Granada and possibly Angola would be my best guess also. I bought all of the ammo in Nicaragua and have been to numerous warehouses in Slovakia and the Czech Republic and took what was available there. Cuba ended up getting many of the VZ 52 carbines and I suspect most of the ammo in the 60s and gave it out to emerging communist countries.
SteveK

 

Wow! You must have a ton of 7.62x45 ammo. So are you selling any? Do you think there is any ammo left in Cuba? There may be a day that the US establishes normal relations with them. Maybe then we may see importation permitted to let some into the US market. Wishful thinking!

 

Landshark
When I was buying it , I was working for Century Arms. That ammo is long gone.
If we normalize relations with Cuba and can buy surplus....you can bet that Century will be there first. They are still the largest in surplus.
SteveK

 

One company here in Czech Republic has about 30.000 rounds on stock… normal and tracers.

 

Do you have a name and contact information for this company? Thanks.

 

I find hard to find ammo at small shows in PA. Folks have a couple of boxes of any oddbal item you might seek, here and there. Occasioanly ntire tins. If uncommn the prces are nto high. That is you best bet, go to small shows and folks eventually sell off there old ammo when they get out of guns. One day fire hall shows are the best spot, folks want to move all there stuff by the end of the day. Big shows are not so good as the dealers have higher overhead and have to make more per item, willing to wait to sell if they do not get the desired price.

 

The latest headstamp I have is ZV 79 (1979). It would be nice if Norma would run a batch. I think the answer is reloading. A lot of cartridges can be resized for the 7.62x45 with the most common one I see is 220 Swift. Any 7.62x45 headstamped before 1960 uses large Bredan primers (after that they used smaller primers) which can be drilled out leaving the rim of the old primer and a Boxer primer can be used. You will have some mess ups but this is a reason to keep your early brass. There is a old posting that explains how to do this in detail. I am thinking about having a batch of reloading dies made from Lee for the 7.62x45. Any interest send me a PM and I will keep you on a private list in case I get a run made.

 

Take a good close look at your seven (7) to make sure it isn't an upside-down four (4).

 

I shot quite a bit of it before I realized it was going for near a buck a round, even 5 years ago. Only small batches exist in the US and most all came from Century so that they could get rid of the SHE rifles reportedly from Grenada. I found the rifle and round easy to shoot and functioned flawlessly without any gas adjustment. I'm no expert but performance and felt recoil reminded me of .308. With the folded bayonet its really looked chunky like whatever the gorillas were using on horseback in the planet of the apes movies. Now Down to less than 300 rounds and all 20 of my $99 dollar rifles are long gone, i will prolly put some on the trader soon.

 

It's a 7. Have several boxes of it.

 

Prolly late production clansdestine aid munitions

 

I have a 7,62x45 and 7,62x39 both with the same head stamp BXN 53 (steel cases)

 

I recall reading somewhere that an enterprising company in the US resized 7.62x45 to 7.62x39, completely taking the rounds apart, resizing and reassembling and then selling on.

This was when there was very little x39 in the US and so all the effort was financially worthwhile

I think a million rounds was mentioned...

Of course my memory might be playing tricks on me

regards

Richard

 

Millions of rounds! Pulled, Sized, trimmed to 39mm and reloaded. Most sold to the US Military for foreign weapons training. A similar amount of 7.35 Carcano underwent a similar transformation.