There were only two replies deleted. "Senior NCO Sword" is in the title. It didn't come out of the blue.

 

OK. Why is it a NCO sword? Was it a name given by the previous owner?

 

That is what the original poster was under the impression it could have been and hence the reason for his post.... asking for opinions.
It was sorted out reasonably early on that it wasn't NCO issue and that 'Senior'was not ever an issue either.
The rest of the post stemmed from a discussion on whether it was a modern fake or not.
All the extra pics etc, were added to the argument as to whether or not other Japanese styled Katana existed, during the war and post war. That is made by "souvenir" sellers, during, and after the war, made in Japan, after the war, for sale to the Gis etc And, any made in occupied areas for other than Japanese troops.

 

Stegel,
you are very kind to explain it so concisely.

I'll never understand why folks won't read an entire thread; they could learn so much more.

 

Interesting comments. For what it's worth, there have been over 2300 looks on this post !!! I am now vacillating between selling it and keeping it now. I just need to find a place , BB

 

2,282 views, and only 13 different people have made comments. And one of those, is Vic's warning. Where are the rest of the sword guys? I know this is a touchy subject, and there is very little written information. But, how are we supposed to learn, if we don't discuss? Surely we've almost all, run across these anomalies from time to time? They came from somewhere. Of the ones I've come across, there have been at least one other. Some, four or five. Just to say, if'n it Japanese, it's a modern Chinese fake, is just wrong. Yes Don, I'm gonna start that new thread soon. Just gotta get un-lazy.

 

Hey, I still have some clearasil from the 60's. Send it to me and maybe I can cure it. The problem is I have to keep it in isolation for twenty years.

 

I don't know enough to make a valid comment on the sword; had I posted, it would have been
that it was a Chinese made sword- when who knows. I do not think it could be proved one way or another.

 

The cutout guard is what has me puzzled, The design in the center section of the guard is one I haven't seen before on shin gunto cutout guards.

 

Haven't logged on for quite some time, but this thread sure got my interest. The sword in question in my opinion (and just my opinion) is probably modern Chinese fake. I can't be 100% certain without examining it up live, but I see that most of the parts are an "attempt" to imitate a T-98 officer's shingunto and that kind of makes me lean towards one of those "aged looking" fakes (and a pretty bad fake at that) coming out of red China in the last 10 or 15 years or so.
There certainly were Japanese "looking" swords made in the field during the war and right post war, some actually being used by non-Japanese soldiers, but they tend to be of more crude nature but having a more utilitarian design with it's fittings versus a direct "attempt" with modern lousy fakes to make it look like a T-98 shingunto or a T-95 NCO. There were also T-98 look-alike imitations made in Japan post war for GI souvenirs, but they usually have some kind of stamping on the blade or labeling on the scabbard and are more unifrom in make, and this example shown by the OP is not such a case.

 

Edokko, thank you for settling the matter as many of us have been wanting to know.

 

I agree, that this sword, was probably made in China. But, not in our lifetime. It doesn't look anything like any of the fakes I have seen, in the past 15 years. Other than the first very crude batch, they have all tried to mimic the Type 98. As you said Tak, this one does a horrible job. The reasons I think this is a wartime, or early post-war sword are: The decorations are Plum blossoms, not Cherry. The "mums" have way too many petals. The tsuba, is cut-out very similar to the Chinese origin sword, we butted heads on a couple years ago. The areas of missing paint, display deep pitting. Not what you find on the fakes. And lastly, the Ashi, shows considerable flairing, from long term carry. Like you, I would love to be able to handle it in person.

 

Trench, your thoughts are as good as mine on this, and like I said, mine is just an opnion. Can't really tell when these Chinese crap were made unless examined close up live. It's just that the've been getting pretty good at "aging" things, as the fakers pretty much were aging their stuff (whatever antique they were creating) for many years and they know the technique. I have this feeling that they may be real lousy imitating T-98 fittings but they know how to "age" !

 

UPDATE:

I have found a sword almost 100% identical to the OP's for sale at auction that ends on Monday 3/16, I will post the link and photos when the auction is over.

This will be interesting for further discussion!!

 

UPDATE:

I have found a sword almost 100% identical to the OP's for sale at auction

Well then, the chance of it being a fake just increased exponentially.

 

Or, so then did the chance of more than one being made, at the same time, in the same place.

 

End of the month I will be in China with my wife she is selling her business and two of her three homes their , so I will have some extra time . I will try to get to the one plant I know of that makes many reproduction swords and bayonets and helmets and more (I was their about three years ago and bought some), they also make many props for movies Will get pictures and may purchase a few. To share with the members so we can all see the new repros coming out of China.

 

That would be great. Get a copy of the NCO sword if possible. I still want one to just handle, abuse, play with, whatever and have yet to find one.

 

I don't do ebay.

 

If you want to know who's who, and what's what when it comes to repros, (fakes) eBay is the place to go. The fakes turn up, from time to time, at the local shows. Unfortunately, they were either purchased as original, or identified as such. No bargains there. The average eBay fake, will cost around $200.00, by the time you pay shipping.

 

I go to a lot of shows, some huge. I have yet to see one and I have asked dozens of times. I am not looking for a wood handle variation. I want the most common one with metal handle. Dealers look at me like they have no clue what I am talking about. The huge Flea Market in Daytona Beach has a huge Chinese sword dealer. They have 50 or more variations of fake swords. They have never had one and are clueless. Using PayPal is something I do every 2 or 3 years for an out of country purchase for something otherwise unavailable. Ebay pretty much requiring PayPal use is helping support a loss of gun rights. I have a real aversion to that, had rather not have one than support PayPal. I do not want a cheap fake, I want a good one, one that looks real to the uninformed. I typically do not order items directly from China. I have been there twice and have not seen a good one there either. There were plenty of fake swords, just no NCOs. Fake Rolex watches, $3 after asking price of $10.

Just checked my ebay, with difficulty. My last purchase there was more than 5 years ago.

 

You're spot on Panzer!
If reproduction is what you want, then the Indian ones are much better.
For any one who's interested, here's a couple of wall hangers i have-- these are the ones visitors can touch and play with
The top one is an 'old' one, i've had for some 15yrs, it is the same weight as an original and of excellent construction.
It's a bit scary, but note how really good the Arsenal and sub contractor/inspection stamps are compared to the originals!
The bottom one is 'newer' and many of the clues which gave the top one away as a fake were corrected, but not entirely.
This one doesn't have the wooden liner like the top one and is not as well made as the top one either.

There are many manufacturers of reproduction swords in India, from what i've seen, they make all types of swords and supply
re enactors and film production crews worldwide, so the quality can vary from one to the other as you could expect.

I have yet to see one which is 100% true to an original(shouldn't speak too soon perhaps), but any one who knows what to look for in an original, can spot these as fakes almost immediately!

Open the picture in a new tab, if you want to see closer.

Looking forward to see the latest Chinese quality at the moment, hope to see your pics when you get them marsman!

 

Thanks for all the info guys. Yes, Stegel, those look pretty close. It is nice to have something you can handle and let lay around without worry. My 2 originals do not see the light of day very often.

 

Looking at the photos of the OP's sword, compared to the ones shown here, there are differences between this sword and the OP's, but I do see some similarities. The ito, tsuba are very similar in appearance, and the thick shibakiki looks similar, (different design on sword shown). The scabbard paint is quite similar too. Just my opinion, but this sword is similar to the OP's. The tang on this sword also has some marking on it.

Here is the auction link as well. http://www.ebay.com/itm/321693637855?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

I call these "Mum" pattern erzatz guntos. They generally exhibit the same manufacturing characteristics,and honest carry wear. I've owned at least 2 of them,and examined several more,since the mid 70s. The ones I owned I picked up back in the 80s,direct from vets,and they both had the same background,the Philippines.

Both vets ,though unknown to each other and states apart,were in the PI on Luzon,and picked the swords out of surrender stacks at random. One even had a blue/brown tassel made of the same ito wrap.The blades on all were BADLY folded,but had a real hamon and pretty sharp. The tangs had these hammered crude folds and only one I've observed had any kanji,it was a hot stamp on the tang,but I never translated it,looked like a real Japanese character though.

My theory on these"mum" pattern swords is that there was a cottage style factory on Luzon that made these while the PI was cut off from the mainland during the height of the war,and that they were absent the cherry blossom due to possibly being meant for conscripts of some sort. Korean officers? I wish more was known about this pattern in particular,since I've been seeing them for over 30+years. And usually brought back by vets,who never visited China.

 

Yes, there are slight similarities. While I don't think it is Japanese made, It's not a current Chinese fake. I have had two swords, and seen one other, that had the same pommel cap. Interesting piece. What did it sell for?

 

. What did it sell for?

398.00

 

Duh, when all else fails, read the directions.

 

Sporter, i don't know what the Kanji means, i only know what you and others tell me, and i take your words on it.
I don't think any specific region had been pin pionted yet for any of the swords, so i'm not sure how you are focusing on the Philipines in particular.

However, the picture i showed was from a Late War Japanese Civilian sword, not one of these possible 'fake'or possible islander/colonial swords which is the topic of this thread. I added the picture to show possible similarities in that the tang is marked with a single character kanji.
The kanji shown by Panzer from the recent auction on ebay is different again...
Here's a few more pics of MY old civilian sword

 

Sporter, i don't know what the Kanji means, i only know what you and others tell me, and i take your words on it.
I don't think any specific region had been pin pionted yet for any of the swords, so i'm not sure how you are focusing on the Philipines in particular.

However, the picture i showed was from a Late War Japanese Civilian sword, not one of these possible 'fake'or possible islander/colonial swords which is the topic of this thread. I added the picture to show possible similarities in that the tang is marked with a single character kanji.
The kanji shown by Panzer from the recent auction on ebay is different again...
Here's a few more pics of MY old civilian sword
View attachment 877812 View attachment 877813 View attachment 877814 View attachment 877815 View attachment 877816 View attachment 877817

Nice Katana, I didn't know that civilian swords had leather combat covers on their saya, I thought they were just plain lacquered wood sayas?

 

One can find most any type sword with a leather "combat" cover, even NCO's; or at least I've seen pictures of same.

 

One can find most any type sword with a leather "combat" cover, even NCO's; or at least I've seen pictures of same.

You're right Don, i have 2 NCO's with covers ( one leather suede, and one canvas) i have also seen others with full brown leather.
Panzer, there is another civilian on ebay at the moment with a cover on the scabbard.
Here's a few pics

The tang is actually finished off quite well compared to my old one and some other Late War ones i've seen
I wonder what the kanji stamped on the leather strap means?

 

Here is another sword that I was watching on ebay and is very similar to the one the OP has (see 2nd page for his relisted pics). This sword sold for 261.00 on ebay. The seller didn't remove the handle, so no idea what the tang looks like of if signed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Wo...2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUriB5tWP2VDakFXvWl2boA%2FXbs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc