Sorry to see. Never heard of a blown Tok. Maybe a first??? Pics look similar to CZ52 detonations with Bulgarian. Can you show headstamp of ammo being used?

 

It was new production Sellier & Bellot 85 grain FMJ

 

I may be missing something but for the life of me cannot find S&B 94 grain Tokarev rounds. Everything I've found is 85 or 86 grains. And please do not take this the wrong way. I am simply wondering what could have happened as I have a Tokarev also with a ton of new S&B ammo and seeing this makes me raise my eyebrows and think harder about shooting that ammo now.

 

My bad, sorry...it's 85 grain in a box of 50.

 

Oh lord, that's exactly what I have. Oh no no no...

 

Not good. Toks of all flavors (even chinese) are considered strong reliable arms with few problems. If in fact it's an ammo problem manufacturers/importers/sellers and shooters may have a big problem on their hands. I cannot see how forwarding this thread to S&B couldn't benefit everyone.

 

You might make note of the lot number. Usually on one of the flaps.

 

Not sure if it relates, but one of the main reasons I got a spare and unfired CZ52 barrel to spin test both milsurp and new ammo was this example of a problem with S&B - http://www.czforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0, the round was very out-of-spec.

 

I have seen this happen before. Not to me though.. Be very careful of the Tokarev's They are finicky about feeding some ammo. This is especially true with flat nose bullets. One round will chamber and hang slightly before it ejects The second can come up under it. MOST of the time this just causes a jam. It also slows the slide enough that the second bullet looses momentum and doesn't rise enough to enter the chamber. The slide can close in this situation. In your case my guess is thatwhen the firing pin hit the second bullet primer not in the chamber properly and fired the bullet. I have experimented with the Tokarevs while reloading a good bit. When using new ammos I always feed the cartridges through the gun making sure the load smoothly and seat properly in the chamber. Also I recently experience a problem with a jamming and sluggish slide due to a misaligned slide stop pin that caused a problem exactly as I described above. Did some filing on the slide stop and the problem was solved.

I have never heard of any problems with S&B ammo in Tokarev's. It's usually the best quality stuff you can find in less you load your own. For the life of me I cannot make any of my Tokarevs feed flat nosed bullets properly. I always thought Hornady XTPs would feed in any gun but so far I can't make Tokarev feed in any of mine. Under normal circumstances 5.5gr. would not blow up a gun unless it had a MAJOR structural weakness. Don't know what powder they use but 5.5gr. Powder load is light. Unless they use a flake powder like IMR Trail Boss. 5 grains of Trail Boss fills the cartridge It's possible they overloaded the cartridge I suppose. A Tokarev Cartridge will hold roughly 13 grains of fine powder.

 

I have seen this happen before. Not to me though.. Be very careful of the Tokarev's They are finicky about feeding some ammo. This is especially true with flat nose bullets. One round will chamber and hang slightly before it ejects The second can come up under it. MOST of the time this just causes a jam. It also slows the slide enough that the second bullet looses momentum and doesn't rise enough to enter the chamber. The slide can close in this situation. In your case my guess is thatwhen the firing pin hit the second bullet primer not in the chamber properly and fired the bullet. I have experimented with the Tokarevs while reloading a good bit. When using new ammos I always feed the cartridges through the gun making sure the load smoothly and seat properly in the chamber. Also I recently experience a problem with a jamming and sluggish slide due to a misaligned slide stop pin that caused a problem exactly as I described above. Did some filing on the slide stop and the problem was solved.

I have never heard of any problems with S&B ammo in Tokarev's. It's usually the best quality stuff you can find in less you load your own. For the life of me I cannot make any of my Tokarevs feed flat nosed bullets properly. I always thought Hornady XTPs would feed in any gun but so far I can't make Tokarev feed in any of mine. Under normal circumstances 5.5gr. would not blow up a gun unless it had a MAJOR structural weakness. Don't know what powder they use but 5.5gr. Powder load is light. Unless they use a flake powder like IMR Trail Boss. 5 grains of Trail Boss fills the cartridge It's possible they overloaded the cartridge I suppose. A Tokarev Cartridge will hold roughly 13 grains of fine powder.

I believe the the "5.5 g" is the metric weight for the bullet ("85 grains" in Avoirdupois). That "g" would be "grams", not "grains".

 

I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of a squib load having left a bullet in the barrel and another round fired behind it. This is a very common way to blow up numerous pistols.

Was there anything strange about the pistol's functioning on the round prior to the blow-up? Was the report and the recoil of the previous round normal? Did the pistol 'misfeed' and need to have another round jacked into the chamber? You can forget this sort of thing right after a blow-up like this one.

That 'compressed' round you found at your feet could have gotten that way by the bullet in the round coming up against the bullet blocking the barrel. If the round didn't chamber completely, it may not have fired when the trigger was pulled. The normal reaction would be to jack in another round and fire again. Is the dimple in the primer of that compressed round centered, or is it a bit off-center as it would be if the pistol wasn't properly in battery?

Firing a round with the bullet pushed that far back into the case and with twice the weight (and drag) of the usual bullet to push is going to increase the chamber pressure pretty dramatically.

Typically when this happens, you are going to end up with a seriously bulged barrel, like you evidently have.

I have a Browning 1922 that this happened to (it happened to a previous owner) and even the relatively wimpy .32 ACP round was potent enough in this situation to bulge the relatively thick barrel on the 1922. Unlike your pistol, it was easily disassembled and it only took a replacement barrel to get my 1922 back in action.

 

I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of a squib load having left a bullet in the barrel and another round fired behind it. This is a very common way to blow up numerous pistols.

Was there anything strange about the pistol's functioning on the round prior to the blow-up? Was the report and the recoil of the previous round normal? Did the pistol 'misfeed' and need to have another round jacked into the chamber? You can forget this sort of thing right after a blow-up like this one.

Each bullet I fired, including the round that blew up, hit paper so I know there wasn't an obstruction.
As I fired each round, I heard the ejected brass either hit my truck behind me on the right, or hit the roof support beam next to me. I was planning on saving this brass to reload sometime in the future ( I'm not a reloader yet) so I was conscious of the ejected brass.
When the failure happened, the slide was stuck....I couldn't pull it back. The magazine was stuck also so I removed the floorplate to unload the gun...that might be when the compressed round fell out and hit the ground.
I still have a few hundred round of this S&B stuff including the 95 rounds left over from the box I was shooting. I don't plan on shooting it and frankly I'm not sure what to do.
I'll send S&B an email relating my experience with their ammo and might pass this thread along also.
I'm really just glad that, outside of a few very minor cuts from the blown out casing, that no one was hurt....and I wanted to relate my experience with this ammo so others are aware that this ammo might be problematic.

My poor Polish Tok was my favorite pistol...why did I stray from surplus ammo?

 

To me it really looks like the live, unfired round in the chamber wasn't ejected and another one tried to chamber behind it, setting it off out of battery when the nose of the bullet hit the primer. I don't see an easier way to explain the bullet compressed in the case and faint firing pin and ejector marks on it.

I'll bet S&B takes this tack regardless of what you say you did.

Good luck. You'll need it dealing with S&B.

 

To me it really looks like the live, unfired round in the chamber wasn't ejected and another one tried to chamber behind it, setting it off out of battery when the nose of the bullet hit the primer. .

The round in the chamber fired it's projectile ( and it hit paper) but the case swelled and the rim/primer blew out. The recoil probably picked up the next round which compressed by the blown out case still in the chamber.
That's my theory so far at least...

Here's the case I managed to get out of the chamber

Most of the pried-up brass is from me trying to remove it from the chamber.

BTW on further inspection it seems the chamber is where the bulge is --- from the back of the chamber to just in front on the barrel link. ( I still can't remove the barrel from the slide)
I just put a round of Polish surplus in the chamber and it's pretty loose...enough to rattle when shaken.

 

I'm no gunsmith but I've dealt with some crazy stuff in my years of being a gun owner and I have to agree with jjk308, I looks like that one round was pushed down the barrel and another behind it. Anyways, thank the lord your OK, and do like jjk says and call S@B......

 

Wild conjecture but could there have been 2 bullets loaded in a single case?????

 

Looks sort of like the results of firing the sabotaged ammo (instead of a powder charge, a case full of PETN IIRC, but may have been a different HE/initiating explosive) that we slipped into the VC supply chain back in he bad old days in RVN. I really doubt S&B is selling ammo so loaded.

 

Looks to me like the barrel was either plugged with another bullet or the bullet stuck in the barrel at least temporarily and all the pressure was redirected backwards blowing out the head of the cartridge and bulging the chamber. At least that's my guess.

Count your lucky stars you weren't more injured. Part out the gun and sell it on ebay. Buy yourself another Tokarev.

Makes me wonder about S&B ammo now. Haven't shot much of it I reload most of what I shoot. I think the Pri-Partizan stuff is a bit better quality if you must buy off the shelf.

 

Looks to me like the barrel was either plugged with another bullet or the bullet stuck in the barrel at least temporarily and all the pressure was redirected backwards blowing out the head of the cartridge and bulging the chamber. At least that's my guess.

.

I would've thought that also but every round I fired hit paper so I've eliminated the possibility of a barrel obstruction.

BTW if it fired out of battery would there have been enough force to not only bulge the chamber but also blow out the grips?

After it happened I looked at it and it appeared to be in battery and I tried to work the slide but it was locked up tight. I couldn't get the magazine out either. I took the mag floor plate off to get the rounds out.

 

Tok Blow Up



It is possible you have a bad crimp in your ammo, where it drove the bullet in when it hit the feed ramp, thus creating an over pressurized load. Sometimes ammo companies or hand loaders try and use a taper crimp on auto loading ammo because the chambers on the case face and not on the shoulder. If the taper crimp is not tight enough, and or the case face is not crimped into the bullet, with just enough to catch, the bullet will be driven into the case creating high pressures.


Sorry about your pistol, glad your ok. Test the crimps.

 

It is possible you have a bad crimp in your ammo, where it drove the bullet in when it hit the feed ramp, thus creating an over pressurized load. Sometimes ammo companies or hand loaders try and use a taper crimp on auto loading ammo because the chambers on the case face and not on the shoulder. If the taper crimp is not tight enough, and or the case face is not crimped into the bullet, with just enough to catch, the bullet will be driven into the case creating high pressures.

I have Polish TT and ... I am shooting S&B ammo. (Stil waiting for my can of surplus ammo).
Mil surplus ammo has 3 "points" punched on the case neck to hold bullet in place. S&B ammo has something like taper crimp.
I think, that your explanation covers all.

About S&B ammo quality. I own almost unfired .38 Special revolver. Bought with it 2 boxes - S&B .38Spl Wad Cutter. From 100 rounds 12 did not entered cylinder (last 10mm). another 10 I had to push them last couple mm. It was factory ammo, not reloads. That says something about S&B quality. Unfortunately it is the most available ammo in Poland.

 

First – I’m glad you came through without injury.

Second – sorry, but your Tok is toast. Salvage small parts if you can, but the major components just went through a major incident and would not be safe to use, even if you could use slide or frame with a bunch of replacement parts.

Lastly – what happened.

We will never know. Bu all means contact S&B, but I doubt it’s their problem.

I’ve seen this kind of thing in self-loading pistols chambered for a bottle necked cartridge. Typically, a round is fired, the case fails and the case neck is blown forward into the leade, where it lodges. When the next round is fired the bullet from that cartridge hits the neck from the prior round which is now a bore obstruction, chamber pressure goes through the roof, the back of the cartridge case is blown off, and 35,000+ psi is dumped into the frame. The cartridge with the bullet pushed back into the case was the top round in the magazine when the party happened and had the bullet pushed back into the case by the pressure that escaped from the chamber.
If the above is what happened (and who knows?) you’re extremely lucky, That kind of pressure dumped into the frame typically blows the grip panels apart and the grip panel fragments cause hand injuries.

 

I agree that you are very lucky. What actually happened we probably will never know. You can now guess what you think happened prior to the incident, but your memory now usually is fuzzy.

We really need to know the Lot Number for your S&B ammo. Usually problems happened within a given lot.

Just glad you are fine except for the minor scratches. It really could have been much worse.

Let us have that Lot Number.......this is very important for others that have the S&B in their possession.

Gary A in CT.

 

Above the bar code it reads 'SBTOK' and below are the numbers '7 54908 50001 7'

On one flap reads 't c 0 6351-1 and the opposite flap reads '11'

Those are the only markings on the box.

Thanks for the well wishes and comments everyone! I'm glad no one was injured.
It was a shock when it happened and I lost my favorite pistol but I guess my lesson learned is don't buy S&B ammo...and always wear eye protection!

 

Above the bar code it reads 'SBTOK' and below are the numbers '7 54908 50001 7'

On one flap reads 't c 0 6351-1 and the opposite flap reads '11'

Those are the only markings on the box.

---------------------------------------------------------------
What we need are the numbers, for example ( 292/43) that are on the inside of the opening flap.
It is not printed on the cardboard, but rather stamped. All of my boxes are stamped inside the "red & green" end of the box with
a 5 number series with a "/" separating the number string . Some are hard to read due to sloppy work.

Your info is the "Sku" for pricing bar code and the "6351-1" and 11 number must be for box type indicators.

I would assume the machine "stamped" number is their Lot Control system.

Really glad you are OK. I saw a M1A blow up due to incorrect handloading and that was not a pretty sight.

Gary In CT

 

Man, that is bad news about your pistol! I've fired quite a bit of S&B through my Cz-52 with no issues...yet.

 

I suffered from an identical situation about 40 years ago. Me and buddy went to the range with my new spanish Star mod M and his Mauser 96 slab side. I started to shoot the Star with shoulder stock when after few rounds I heard a big bang and my face was hit by a warm blow and small brass splinters. Of course at first I was shocked with trembling hands and eyes closed (too bad no shooting glasses), then when I felt my face wet I started to be worried. I tried to slowly open one eye at the time and when I had notice I could see I became more calm and I went to clean my face from blood. No damage to the gun except for stuck headless case. After ten minutes my buddy told me I had to shoot his Mauser (no stock) to return confident with guns. Well, after three or four round we had another big bang and the extractor flow in the meadow (fortunately we've found it after) while the chamber was slightly ripped near the extractor slot. We wrote to Fiocchi and they told us to send our ammo baxes for further investigations. After while they answered ammos were perfectly as per specs. Of course they lied.
All this to say that also big ammo manufacturers are not exempt from big mistakes, so dont crucify the gun but rounds. IMHO when such situations occurred chance are strong that when they shift to load a caliber to another, a little faster burning powder would remain in the line making small bombs in place of quiet rounds.
All this to

 

Sorry your pistol is toast but glade you are OK.
We may never know what happened.
What ever happened it happened out of battery IMO because the slide is bulged.

Added:

Sitting here thinking (I have a thread working on rebuilding a TT33)
One of the reasons I started the rebuild was rounds not going all they way into battery.
Since this is new commercial ammo (just a thought here) the brass may have had the shoulder set too far forward.
When the slide slammed close it left the round slightly out of battery and would have also wedged the brass in the chamber.
The round fired, blew the back out of the case.

I’m just throwing this out there to think about.

 

For what it is worth. I have seen cartridges blow out the side and back just like yours in the picture. What caused it was bullet set back, nothing more, nothing more complicated than that. Several years ago I shot some .30 S&B Tokarev and it was so overloaded it scared me to shoot it. I tore down the factory ammo and reduced the powder charge before I shot any more of it and I never bought any more of it again. When ammo is loaded that hot and you get bullet set back on top of that, it is not hard to understand it will blow the gun sky high.

 

Anyone think the rush to fill the ammo shortage may be involved? Was at the SHOT SHOW when then the first shortage started and saw what appeared to be all the ammo companies (including S&B) scrambling about. May be especially true with hard to find calibers like 7.62x25 tok. Will stick to good milsurp (like Polish) from now on.

 

Just found the lot number under the flap:
299/21

 

Thanks Speedicut for the information. I have several boxes in the same range (292/21). Broke down 10 from each box and they were all about 7.8 grains of fine ball powder.

A double load would just overfull the case and the bullet would make for a very compressed load. The 7.8 grains does load the case to just below the shoulder. If you break down a round, the bullet crimp makes the bullet just about useless to reuse.

Seating the bullet slightly longer could allow it to be reused with a crimp die. You could go below the factory crimp, but now you are into a possible pressure situation................... Enough from me for now.

Gary A

 

Thanks for sharing this! !

 

Personally, the RPR (Romanian) surplus has been the best choice in pistols, semis, etc., its nice to see the new production steel cased as well but the brass cased surplus is range friendly and surefire,