[gremlin1945]

Don't know if this has ever been asked before but what does the mum being removed do as far as value goes?
Same for cleaning rod.
My T 99 Series 37 Tokyo Juki,a known biring back,has the mum,cleaning rod,airplane sights,hooded front sight and original well worn wood.The bolt/ext/fp is a mismatch.I'm not selling ,but the prices on these are all over the board.

 

[BradB]

Here is the most recent discussion of your question. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?243272-Mum-Ground-mum&highlight=rifle

 

[03man]

You are correct, prices are all over the board.

 

[CosmicCharlie24]

Different folks place different values on mums, matching numbers and/or messed with wood. Personally I wouldn't buy any Arisaka without a mum unless it was a very good deal and I could flip it or use it as good trade bait. I also want all matching numbers as well. Unmessed with wood is also important but if I had to rank the 3 it'd be number 3. But hey this is just me. I also have a very modest collection of Arisakas (less then 10) and I'm not on the hunt for every series, variation etc. If I was I'd probably think differently about having a mum. My most important rule in collecting is to buy what I like. I happen to like the mum. I think it prudy.

 

[BIG ED]

I went to a show today. I was looking at a beat pile of crap type 99 sustitue rifle. It was really whipped with a genuine broken stock, rust, mis-match etc. on a scale of 1-10 it was about a 1.5 The seller was more than happy to point out "It's still got the mum" Yeah to bad the rest of the rifle is total junk I thought! So I said "I see that, to bad it's attached to what your selling" He didn't like that. To bad LOL

 

[bonham]

I bought a type 2 about two years ago.The mum was ground,but hell,it's a type 2 in very good condition and I only paid $100 out the door.Nor does the missing mum change the history this weapon was a part of.I wish it had the mum but....so what.
My brother-in-law writes well researched WW2 novels.He is pretty successful.and one is being discussed for a possible movie.While he loves history,he is not a gun guy.What he does find most interesting are ground mum rifles.To quote him..."that adds to the history".So,as far as collecting with the idea that you may sell them someday,I would buy the best condition,all matching,mummed example I could find.If the history of the piece is the reason you collect,then maybe the rules are a bit different.

 

[CosmicCharlie24]

Hey Bonham - not trying to be argumentative but I'm not sure I follow. How does a ground mum "add to the history"?

 

[gremlin1945]

This is probably the only one I'll own.I'm going tous it,and at the same time keep looking for a wire bipod,at a reasonable price,and on of the five other matching bolts.(The original one was tossed by my friends uncles aunt soon after it got home.
I've been all over this sight absorbing info and history about all the stuff I own.Fascinating stuff.

 

[bonham]

Hey Bonham - not trying to be argumentative but I'm not sure I follow. How does a ground mum "add to the history"?

I 'm not offended by your question at all,as I was less than clear.To my brother-in-law, the fact that mums were ground to allow the Japanese to "save face" adds to the history of the piece.Romantic in his view;speaks to the pride of those people and that time.I see his point,and I share it to some degree.I teach school,and my students are always interested in the ground mum story.It really say a lot about the Japanese in 1945.
Thanks for giving me a chance at explaining.

 

[Vicasoto]

Hi CosmicCharlie24 :

" Ground Mum " indicates that the arm in question was "surrendered" at the end of the war, a first time event for the Imperial Armed Forces of Nippon. It also proves that the rifle survived WW2 to become a souvenir for an Allied soldier / sailor / airman / marine . The canceling of the mum served the occupation forces as a means of making sure all arms were counted and accounted for while Japan was being made weaponless. It also permitted saving face by the ex-military forces that none of the Emperor's Holy Arms fall into the hands of the occupying western barbarians. For the Supreme Command Allied Forces the mum defacing was no big deal, making the ex-soldiers and country weapons free was more important to a safe occupation of the Nation and the handling of millions of returning men from overseas posts.
Mummed rifles do not posses that rich history, those are arms found in locations where there were no living forces left to surrender; fallen, abandoned at battle sites or in storage facilities in by-passed islands, in the hands of people to whom the 16 petal flower had no special significance. So while having a Mum untouched does add $ 25.00 to 25 % more to the value of a rifle a ground and match does have its additional 'history' of being surrendered after August 15th 1945.
Vicasoto

 

[CosmicCharlie24]

Interesting prospective bonham and Vicsoto - I'm not sure I totally agree but I respect where you're both coming from. Clearly a number of Arisakas made it to the states (and elsewhere) with the mum intact. So whether it was a battlefield pickup or taken from an abandoned barrack I don't think its history is any less rich. It just made it to the states either before the official surrender or it somehow missed the grinding machine. It's history could have been just as interesting or boring as a ground example.
As a history buff my take on collecting these crack like items is to try and get them in as close a condition as possible as they were during the war. Hence I'd be more inclinded to get a struck mum as opposed to a ground mum as a strike mark would more likely indicated that it was defaced by the Japanese solider before he either died or was captured. A ground mum to me indicates an alternation done post war (albeit very shortly afterwards).

 

[bonham]

I agree.I'm not in an economic position to start collecting again,unless I run into a really good deal.But since I have a type 2 and a 99 that are ground,I would prefer any others I would buy to have the mum.Please understand I'm not saying ground is better;I am saying that some find them interesting,and I understand why.
As an aside,on this site,I have read more than a few stories about mums being removed ,on ships with returning GI's.Those weapons could have very well been captured in combat.Has that story since been discredited ?

 

[BIG ED]

Japanese soldier often "defaced" the mum when the going got rough and they were going to make the last "Banzia" charge. I think Doss got one that was a direct vet pick-up from Iwo Jima. The mum was hacked when the US soldier picked it up during a lull in the fighting. So not all were post hostilities ground. On the flip side the mass grinding of mums subsided late in 1945. Jarrod has a type 99 with a US navy ship provenance that is unground and still tagged to the ship it was brought home on. If you find a ground 12th series I'll be glad to take it if it bothers you that much.

 

[arisakadogs]

As a "collector", I look for original finish on wood and metal and all matching parts. If it has the mum, so much the better. But, I'll pass on a mum every time if the other stuff isn't right.

 

[Vicasoto]

Hello Purists & Flower Lovers :

This is a great forum in which to participate and share one's perspective of our favorite hobby. The common sense rule of " whatever turns you on " surely applies to the majority of Arisakas, the common versions which is how most of us started with. But if you are after the uncommon variations, the scarce low volume series, the paratroop versions, snipers, the mum becomes a premium highly sought after. Arisakadogs has the right point of view here, there is room enough for the martial arms collector, the purist, and florist in all of us. Price and availability rule the market, real finds and steals still exist.
I certainly enjoy reading about the finds and questions raised by the members, that was what nurtured me in the beginning with the older Banzai crowd of the 1980s, it is certainly alive and well on this Site today. Keep asking questions, share those stories, pictures, and buy the very best you can afford. By the way I wish every Board member and Banzaite the Merriest of Chritmas and a great New Year.
Vicasoto

 

[03man]

Hi CosmicCharlie24 :

" Ground Mum " indicates that the arm in question was "surrendered" at the end of the war, a first time event for the Imperial Armed Forces of Nippon. It also proves that the rifle survived WW2 to become a souvenir for an Allied soldier / sailor / airman / marine . The canceling of the mum served the occupation forces as a means of making sure all arms were counted and accounted for while Japan was being made weaponless. It also permitted saving face by the ex-military forces that none of the Emperor's Holy Arms fall into the hands of the occupying western barbarians. For the Supreme Command Allied Forces the mum defacing was no big deal, making the ex-soldiers and country weapons free was more important to a safe occupation of the Nation and the handling of millions of returning men from overseas posts.
Mummed rifles do not posses that rich history, those are arms found in locations where there were no living forces left to surrender; fallen, abandoned at battle sites or in storage facilities in by-passed islands, in the hands of people to whom the 16 petal flower had no special significance. So while having a Mum untouched does add $ 25.00 to 25 % more to the value of a rifle a ground and match does have its additional 'history' of being surrendered after August 15th 1945.
Vicasoto

Victor, IMO, you have Way over simplified, and confused the status of mum vs. ground mum. What you say just can't be proven to be the case.

I have several mummed rifles with their rich history as to where and by whom they were captured.

It is impossible to tell with certainty were or when a mum was ground.

 

[gremlin1945]

I've heard that a lot of the bipods were removed because they seemed to be a hinderance,especially around foliage.
Anyone else heard that story?
And a Merry Christmas,Channukah and to all in general and a Happy,prospeorous and healthy New years to all.

 

[GUNZABLAZIN]

I don't have an Arisaka yet, but I would like to have BOTH. A mum shows what it is supposed to look like. A gun with the Mum ground means that it indeed was carried in the war, or at the very least was surrendered!! The same reason I want a German Mauser with the Nazi Swastica's, and a Russian Capture with the Swastica's peened out. I think the defacing of the significant symbols of each country is historical, either by losing the war, or being a captured battle rifle.

 

[03man]

I've heard that a lot of the bipods were removed because they seemed to be a hinderance,especially around foliage.
Anyone else heard that story?
And a Merry Christmas,Channukah and to all in general and a Happy,prospeorous and healthy New years to all.

Sure,
we've hear the pod story. Some of us buy it, others don't; it's my opinion that the Japanese soldiers did not remove them. T

here are many pictures of the pods in place; after all, they were there for a purpose; besides, it isn't that easy to remove one with limited tools or without a good vise.

 

[manygunsmike]

As a "collector", I look for original finish on wood and metal and all matching parts. If it has the mum, so much the better. But, I'll pass on a mum every time if the other stuff isn't right.

+1

manygunsmike