I would also look into a Lee Classic Cast Press or a used RCBS Rockchucker on EBay, etc. I have the Lee and it's a beast, absolutely bomb-proof.

 

Not interested in anything Lee. I have used their stuff and think it's junk. The only thing Lee that I have is a dipper set and a funnel. Tried their dies, thought they sucked, tried their breech lock challenger press, it was junk, the safety scale is a joke. RCBS, and Redding are really the only two brands that I can find almost nothing to complain about their products, to be fair I have not used anything Hornady save for bullets and their loading manual which is about the best. I looked at the RCBS Rock Chucker and while it is a very nice press the Redding Bib Boss 2 is basically the same thing only a little bit beefier. I also looked at the RCBS Ammomaster 2 and found it to be a stout press but think the Redding Ultramag would better suit my needs for 5 bucks more.

 

You're awful opinionated for a person needing a referendum on what single stage press to buy ~AMMOe

 

If the UltraMag is in your budget, the Forster Co-Ax is too, and it is one fine single stage reloading press. Forster has an adapter that allows it to use standard shell holders (or other tools that mount where a standard shell holder does), but their standard automatic shell holding jaws are great. The snap-in/out die retention system is convenient and incredibly accurate, and the spent primer handling is flawless (there is no priming arm slot in the ram, so no debris comes anywhere close to the ways of the press.) The long tubular gripped handle provides enormous leverage while also allowing you to "choke" up for less travel and leverage when desired. They also offer a shorter, ball-tipped handle.

The Lee Classic Cast (iron) press is a different animal than anything else Lee makes. It is the equal of almost any O-frame press, for much less money. It has a unique handle/toggle link that is adjustable for length of handle, angle of swing, and left/right handed operation, and it disposes of spent primers through its hollow ram just like BBII and UltraMag.

Andy

 

+1 on the classic cast. Build well and should last a long time.

Dave

 

I wasn't that long ago that we had a thread on the Lee Press failure-

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=10803

I like the Lee dies but the presses are not that great. All my presses are RCBS

 

PJ308, funny that thread also shows a RCBS press frame broken in half!

The Lee Classic Cast press frame is solid cast iron/steel and the linkage and toggle are solid steel. I'm not a fan of many of Lee's products, but the LCC is a much better press than their other pot-metal presses, and one of their finest products.

Andy

 

I'm sorry that some people just can't see the facts. Lee makes a substandard product. From aluminum dies to hokey substandard linkage Lee stuff sucks. I have used Lee stuff, it's what I started on, it was cheap but it was junk so I upgraded. If you've use a Lee press then use any other press it's obvious that the lee is substandard. The linkage is hokey and full of slop. On my Lee press I could alter the depth of bullet seating up to .025 simply by the amount of force I put on the press handle at the bottom of the stroke AFTER the linkage arms had hit the travel stops. I have looked at just about every press being offered for sale. I looked at the offerings from RCBS and while they are good they are not as good as Redding. If you compare the RCS to the BB2 you can see that the BB2 is a better press for about 30 dollars more, that's 30 dollars I can spare for a superior product. Also, if you look at the Ammomaster-2 and compare it to the Ultramag, the Ultramag is a better press for about 10 dollars more, once again, 10 dollars I can spare for a superior product. I looked at the Co-Ax and it's just to weird for me. The presses that Lyman sells now are substandard and feel chintsy in my opinion. So to sum things up, I started loading on a Lee then upgraded to the Redding T-7. I have had good luck with the T-7 but am now looking for a nice single stage to complement my turret press. Since my Redding turret press has served me so well doesn't it make sense that I would go back to them for my next press. You Lee guys can understand brand loyalty as that's the only logical reason to keep using substandard equipment other than the low price if your on a tight budget. So I have basically narrowed it down to 2 presses that will meet my needs. I was really hoping someone here has used one or the other to give an honest opinion on the performance and quality of one of the two aforementioned presses.

 

Judging by that post, I think you've made up your mind. You might want to entertain the idea of not insulting other forum members based on their product choices, though. Just a thought...

 

I'm not insulting anyone, you might be getting offended but I never insulted you or anyone.

 

No, I'm not offended.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as I've never met you and have no reason not to like you. It's just that written correspondence does not allow us to use tone, variable pitch, etc. that we're used to in everyday speech. Add facial expressions and body language to that, and written communication is a far distant second.

As far as the opinions you've expressed, they can indeed be taken as insulting, as it's clear they were. Like I mentioned before, you might want to modify what you say, or at least think about how it might sound to someone else.

 

Yes son, you were insulting. And I’m sorry you just can’t see that.

 

I'm just looking for opinions on a reloading press and expressing my views on why I don't want a Lee. I just want someone who has used one or both of the presses I mentioned and give me an honest opinion of their performance. I did not nor do I desire to turn this into a pissing match or hurt anyone's feelings.

 

I at times have expressed my views in a, lets say, less than sensitive manner. I didn't find your comments as an insult but did take some offense by them. If you find the Lee equipment lacking somewhat no one minds you expressing your opinion about that. When you start making statements like, I'm sorry that some people just can't see the facts. Lee makes a substandard product etc., or, You Lee guys can understand brand loyalty as that's the only logical reason to keep using substandard equipment other than the low price if you're on a tight budget, it rubs a few people wrong. In a sense you are saying that people that use Lee products are pretty ignorant and can't tell between a good product or a substandard one. All of my dies and presses are Lee and I am well pleased with them. They are inexpensive but I don't consider them cheap. If used properly, for what they are designed to do, they work very well. You say you can get a difference of .025 when seating your bullets using different amounts of force on the press handle. That is not a fault of the press but your's. You should do the same thing the same way everytime. You don't seat a bullet raising the ram to the top of the stroke and then apply more pressure. You will probably get variances with any press if used in that manner. I have made mistakes with their dies. Buggered up an 8x57 die once. But all the mistakes were my fault because I did something wrong. Many here on this forum use Lee products and are very happy with them. We don't mind differing opnions but attacking ones mentality is another story. I may be a ******* ******* but I'm not an ignorant, red neck *******.
By the way, in your statement about the tight budget you wrote, if your on a tight budget. It should have read, if you're on a tight budget. It could be your tight budget or you're on a tight budget but not both.
Sorry I can't give you an opinion about the other presses. All I have used is Lee and they work well for my needs.

 

Keep it cool people, Please.

AV

 

I've used a Lyman Orange Crusher for about 20 years and been happy with it. I have a mix of equipment, and in my experience Lyman and RCBS are pretty comparable in quality.

 

Reccomend Classic Cast

My father in law has an Ultra mag. While it is certainly MEGA strong, it is way stronger than needed for anything but bullet swaging. I swage a little with my Classic cast with no noticeable problems and it is not nearly strong as an Ultramag. Though if I did serious swaging, I might consider an Ultramag, or a dedicated swaging press. I do major case reforming and conversion on my Classic cast and have for about two years now. NO PROBLEMS ever. It is precise, has such delicate control that seating primers is easy, but enough strength to do anything reasonable.

Furthermore, the Ultramag's design strength is also its weakness. The two bars mounted on top of the press get in the way of your hands as you try to put things on and off the ram. It has major ergonomic problems. On the plus side it has a very nice finish, though I can't say my Classic cast has ever rusted. And that is what a finish is supposed to do...prevent oxidation. Looking nice is pretty much a pointless characteristic that many expensive Redding products seem to have.

Classic cast $75

Ultramag $250

Is the Ultramag 3x better. Not by a long shot. Like most things Lee, it gets the job done well for less than anybody else. And I have used several presses (but not a Big boss, which is why I refrain from commenting on it).

 

Lee presses and dies compare well with any other manufacturer on the market and usually cost far less with a much better warranty. If you have already made up your mind which products you will and will not buy, why ask for advice?
I have three single stage presses. An old Herters, an RCBS, and a Lee. As far as I'm concerned, the Lee is the equal of the other two. It cost less than the RCBS (the Herter's was free) and has a better warranty. I also own Redding, RCBS, and Lee dies and find the Lee's to be the better buy.
You are entitled to your opinion but I think you are selling Lee short.

 

How can you say Lee has a better warranty. They offer a 2 year if we feel like it warranty. All other brands offer lifetime warranty.

 

To the very novice reloader, this is a most interesting thread. Personally, I am overwhelmed by the choices one has, not to mention expressions of extreme? brand loyalty. I will say this about Lee, their people are top notch. One spent almost an hour with me discussing reloading in a way even I could comprehend.

 

When it comes to Dies I don't mind Lee , and don't mind RCBS. I've never had a need for using Lee customer service. I have had two occassions where I had to send dies back to RCBS for them to correct... which they did'nt and I sent them bcak again simply stating send me 'NEW' dies or refund. The new dies they sent still were out of spec so I gave up on RCBS for any non sporting caliber dies ( Had problems wiht their 7,65 mauser and 6,5 carcano dies ). I got lee dies in those calibers and they worked. A buddy literally got a new set of 8mm mauser RCBS dies and promptly found his sizer die to knock a 30-06 shoulder onto his mauser brass !!. He sent it to their customer servie with fired brass as they asked. I warned him to just demand a new set of dies and be done wiht their "checking & adjusting ". So they asked for more brass and made a statement of sorts about how the die was not off spec but somehow he must have done something wrong...... I warned him. Now they say they are adjusting the die.... but not SAAMI spec dimensions. Now that my buddy has four 8mm rifles and the brass he supplied was new and once fired in an FN49 he may wind up with brass being sized that would potentially chamber in only one rifle. When he gets his dies back we will see - three weeks and going now. If they give him trouble he will have learned a lesson I long ago learned with RCBS dies and their "customer service".
I have a RCBS rock chucker press from 1975 and it's built like a brick outhouse.... would'nt give it up for nothing !. On that note I owuld'nt give a nickle for a Lee press of any model. The RCBS "progressive" type presses...sorry I'll pass I'm a Dillon freak for almost 25 years and blue has been true to me !.

 

On my Lee press I could alter the depth of bullet seating up to .025 simply by the amount of force I put on the press handle at the bottom of the stroke AFTER the linkage arms had hit the travel stops

I have thought about this for about two weeks now. I have gone down into my basement and TRIED to get this to happen with any of my dies (mostly Lee) and my Classic Cast. I have come to the conclusion that this is simply impossible. Bullet seating depth is controlled by die adjustment. Unless one uses so much force they crush the shell-holder into the base of the die, or crush the overtravel-stop, this is impossible. It makes we wonder what is actually meant here. Perhaps I am misunderstanding.

 

I have thought about this for about two weeks now. I have gone down into my basement and TRIED to get this to happen with any of my dies (mostly Lee) and my Classic Cast. I have come to the conclusion that this is simply impossible. Bullet seating depth is controlled by die adjustment. Unless one uses so much force they crush the shell-holder into the base of the die this is impossible. It makes we wonder what is actually meant here. Perhaps I am misunderstanding.

I don't think you are misunderstanding and I have had it happen to me. But only when I changed my stroke and force on the lever. Many get into trouble when using Lee equipment for other than it was designed for and some when changing their technique through the process of handloading. Use it for what it was made for. Keep your technique the same throughout, no problemo. Change anything and of course results may vary.

 

Still not getting it, and I would like to understand what exactly causes Lee-prejudice.

Bullet seating using the Lee dead length bullet seater is altered by two things. If you follow the instructions for a Lee bullet seating die and back off 1/2 turn for no crimp or advance 1/4 turn for a slight crimp the depth of the die in the press is a non-variable. The shell-holders are consistent, so that is a non-variable. The adjustment screw for the seating plug is the variable. The deeper you screw this, the deeper the bullet will be seated. It does not matter how hard you press the handle, it wont advance the case into the die any further because the the ram is stopped by the overtravel stop (I applied excessive force and to my lever and it did not budge a at all. I clamped my caliber to the press and used my depth gauge to measure this to the .001+/-). If you use a crimp then the ram is stopped by the die/shell holder contact. I almost always use a slight crimp to straighten out the case mouth because I almost always shoot cast bullets. Lee says they make their presses at least 3x stronger than is needed. They don't make them 10x stronger so foolish reloaders can gloat about how strong their press is. Little force is needed to seat a bullet (or resize a properly lubricated case for that matter). In fact the Classic cast is really overbuilt for most purposes; I'm the kind of guy that likes to wear suspenders and a belt, but I am not willing to damage the linkage on my Classic cast just to test the hypothesis that it may advance past the overtravel stop (by smashing it essentially). I have concluded the gorilla like force needed in order to do this is so excessive that anyone doing it should know better.

Unless you are some sort of benchrest shooter, Lee products are more precise than needed in general. If you shoot misups like me, it is way more precise than needed. Precision of the equipment resulting in better performance on paper is an idea propagated by the reloading industry to justify making products excessively precise and expensive (RCBS dies that have micrometer bullet seating depth adjustment come to mind). This is not true of all things. Scales are very important, the internal dimensions or the die body, its finish, the internal dimensions of the mold cavity and its finish, etc. are very important. In these areas (except the safety scale, which has dampening problems because of its light weight) Lee maintains as good or better standards as any other mass market reloading company, at least in my experience. It might not have pretty knurling on the outside or have set screws in the locking rings, but these are features that add cost and do not improve ammo. You may admire the handsome finish or your Redding press, but it is not going to rust and slower or faster than the finish on my Classic Cast. When I compare the performance of my $67 Redding K31 neck sizing die set to my $26 Lee collet neck sizing die for 7.5x55, I note that the Lee makes more accurate ammo, needs no lubrication, and costs less than half! The Redding has nice knurling on the outside and a blued lock ring, though. The design of the Lee collet die is so far ahead of the Redding button-dragging die, it is hardly a comparison!

My friend has done heavy duty swaging (swaging lead wire into bullets, swaging .430s into .452s) on a Classic cast , something the Classic cast is not designed to do. Remarkably it held up for years with this abuse, but eventually the linkage gave way when he was using a hammer to bang the handle downwards (the linkage is made of sintered metal, which makes it the cheapest and weakest part in the press, sort of like a sacrificial plastic gear in an engine lathe)! Lee replaced the linkage for no charge even though its warranty had expired. They should not have in my opinion. My friend was abusing his press.

More important than the press is how you mount it to your reloading bench, and more important than that is how your reloading bench is stabilized. My father-in-law has an Redding Ultra-mag, which he purchased because he has prejudice against Lee products to a small degree, and he proceeded to make a flimsy base for it out of 1/4" plywood that he clamps using C-clamps to his multi-purpose workbench that is not secured to a wall or floor. All of the great strength of the Ultra-mag is nullified by this set-up, yet its ergonomic problems remain. My Classic cast, securely mounted, and my non-use of excessive gorilla force, has ensured that my Classic cast continues to produce excellent ammo for about 1/3 the cost of his Ultra-mag. If I ever do wear it out, I can replace it and still be ahead of the Ultra-mag. If I wear my second out (not in my lifetime I am sure), I'll be even.

Reloading is like bowling, golf and shooting. It is not about strength (though some men like to imagine this). It is about finesse, concentration, and consistency. I learn something almost every time I reload or read these boards. I don't learn, and nobody learns, from prejudice. Form a hypothesis, test it using principles of measurement, make conclusions. Repeat often. This is how we advance in knowledge of reloading.

 

Accidental double post.

 

Thank you very much, Curioushooter, for a truly excellent and very instructive posting!

Carcano

 

A VERY big +1 to that! Very, very good post.
Pat

 

Different dies are adjusted differently. For instance I use the Lee Carbide Speed Die for the 45ACP. Your initial die set is to place a shellholder into the ram with a case in the shellholder. Raise the ram and screw the unassembled die body in until it touches the mouth of the case. Then tighten down. No other adjustments are needed until you desire to crimp. 1/4 turn in on the die body for a light crimp or 1/2 turn in for a heavier crimp but you have to turn the bullet seater back out accordingly.
I am not a Lee basher and all of my presses and dies are Lee. But you have to pay attention to how you use their equipment to ensure you are getting their best performance. I have no mind to buy anything else, as I am fully satisfied with what I have from Lee.

 

I've got a Dillon XL-650 for pistol ammo, a Redding Ultra-Mag for my one "big rifle", and a Forster Co-Ax (actually I have two) that I use for .308, .30-06, .30-30, .30 carbine, 7mm Rem Mag, .270, .223, and every now and then I'll load some pistol rounds if I want dead nuts accuracy on the amount of powder I charge and seating depth. The Dillon and Co-Ax are my primary presses.

One of the Co-Ax presses goes to the range with me every now and then. I have two so I don't have to mount and un-mount my Co-Ax to the bench when I want to take a press with me.

Until I bought my .338 - 300 I didn't need anything other than the Co-Ax. I can neck .300 UltraMag brass up to .338 no problem but when it comes time to seat the 300 grain SMK's I can't adjust the die high enough to get the COL that I need. The necking up operation is a breeze with the UltraMag press. Since I usually load a few hundred rounds at a time I don't leave it mounted to the bench. I take the Co-Ax off and put the UltraMag in it's place (different holes of course).

I've used Lee dies and I'm afraid that for me they don't cut it. I can't speak to their press one way or the other. I normally use Forster Benchrest dies, except for the .338-300, I have to use Redding dies for it and I've been pretty happy with them, so maybe I'm comparing the wrong products to each other. I loaded about 50 rounds of .25-06 with my nephews Lee dies in my Co-Ax press and I could never get consistent shoulder setback or bullet seating depth with the Lee dies. I use all Dillon carbide dies for my pistol stuff so I can't comment on Lee pistol dies or presses in that regard either. Pistol reloading isn't as exacting as rifle is (for me) so I suspect that they would do fine. My one and only experience with Lee rifle days was all bad due to lack of consistency, which I believe curioushooter referenced in his excellent post. To each their own...

 

I've used Lee dies and I'm afraid that for me they don't cut it.

What don't they cut exactly? 'Cause the cut is the most important thing.

For example. Lee cuts their FL sizing die for the 7.5x55 Swiss for the Schmidt-Rubin Model 1911, not the Karabiner 31, which has a different shoulder and throat. This results in okay performance from these dies if they are used in a K31. Redding cuts their FL sizing die for the Karabiner 31, so they work better in a Karabiner 31. I use the superior (for this application) Redding die for FL sizing and the superior Lee collet die for neck sizing because I was displeased with the damage the sharp radius on the Redding button dragger neck sizing die was doing to my expensive, and laboriously boxer converted GP-11 brass.

I have seen this with the 7.26x25 Tokarev too. It seems Lee cuts their die for the TT-33 or some other pistol and not for the CZ vz-52. The Lee dies work fine for my friends TT-33. I am not sure of this though, because I have not reloaded 7.62x25 in some time, and I only have one vz-52.

With the 1895 Nagant revolver, Lee makes their dies for reforming Starline brand 32-20 brass and not for resizing 7.62x38R brass. That is why I have C4D's 7.62x38R dies.

Lee makes their 41 Swiss dies for reforming 348 Winchester, not 8mm Lebel. It will work with 8mm Lebel, but the shell holder is wrong.

None of these problems are problems with Lee, they are problems of the end-user failing to read, understand, or be consistent.

I still believe that in general people don't like Lee products because they are inexpensive and they feel superior to Lee product users by spending way to much for their reloading equipment.

 

I ended up selling my T-7 and replacing it with an RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme and a Dillon RL-550B. Blue is true, I'll never go back.