In case the Imgur photos aren’t loading:

 

 

I also have one, given to me by a guy I work with. His father was part the occupation forces in Japan in 1946 and he brought it back with him when he returned home. Mine is also mismatched, my buddy's father had removed the bolt and bolt stop so there was no chance his kids could fire it. When my buddy ended up with it the bolt and bolt stop were no where to be found. MIne also had a kanji marked sling with it.
Mine needed extensive cleanup after I received it, it was coated in a fine film of orange fuzzy rust after spending it's life after the war in his fathers basement. The stock was also filthy and had traces of what looked like latex paint splattered on it. I went over the metal using 0000 bronze wool and Kroil, it came out looking like new. I cleaned the stock with mineral spirits an it also came out looking great. I am grateful to my buddy for passing it along to me.

 

Sounds like a really special piece. If you have any photos of it, please share them here!

 

Very nice! A lot of these saw little, if any use and are in very high condition to this day!

 

Very cool The E-lion-38 indicates acceptance by the Czech military in 1938 but I don't know if this precludes the rifle being sold/transferred to the Japanese or not. Maybe AndyB will weigh in here, he is way-dialed in on Czech firearms.

In researching these P-series Vz24s, I came across a couple of threads here on Gunboards that might help the OP:

1. According a 2007 Gunboard post by Ronin48 “The known "P' series delivered to Japan, from sling markings or history seem to fall in the 40-70 K serial number range” (see www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-vz-24.8755). The OP's rifle falls into this range.

2. John Wall posted Gunboards thread #10 on January 28, 2009 that said “The true story regarding the 1937 date-crested Vz.24's explained 35 years ago in Otakar Franek's 4 volume history of Ceskoslovensjka Zbrojovka Brno. The rifles were directly purchased from CZB by the Japanese Government on 1938 at the time of the signing of the German-Italian-Japanese defense treaty. C-series rifles have been documented with Pacific Theater of Operations (PTO) capture/import paper from the Philippines. All C-series rifles I have seen have serial numbers in high 40,000's to mid-to-high 50,000 range. Mine is in the C47,000 range.” (See www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-navy-vz-24.89545)

In addition, Ball, MMROTW, page 123, says the Japanese Vz24 rifles date to 1938 (not sure if this is shipping date r manufactured date?) and that 40,000 Vz24s where purchased directly by the Imperial Japanese Navy. Ball cites his sources as the Otakar Franek book mentioned by Wall above, as well as two other sources. The three refs (I think all in Czech language) are:

Zbrane Pro Cely Svet, (Arms for the Whole World), by Otakar Franek, published by Blok in the Czech language, in Brno,
Czechoslovakia in 1970, (This is Volume 2 in his four-volume history of CZB.) Rifle production information is summarized in
Tables 2 and 3, on pages 167 to 175. Translated into English by Paul Slunecko.

Ceskoslovenska Rucni Palne Zbrane a Kulomety (Czechoslovak Small Arms and Machine Guns) by Col. Dr. Miroslav
Sada, published by Nase Vojko in the Czechoslovak language, Prague, 1971. Translated by the U.S. Army Foreign Science
& Technology Center, Charlottesville, VA 1973.

“Cs. Zbrojni export do japonska” (Export to Japan in the late 30s) by David Pazdera, and published on the internet at
www.guns-info.cz/news

 

Very cool The E-lion-38 indicates acceptance by the Czech military in 1938 but I don't know if this precludes the rifle being sold/transferred to the Japanese or not. Maybe AndyB will weigh in here, he is way-dialed in on Czech firearms.

In researching these P-series Vz24s, I came across a couple of threads here on Gunboards that might help the OP:

1. According a 2007 Gunboard post by Ronin48 “The known "P' series delivered to Japan, from sling markings or history seem to fall in the 40-70 K serial number range” (see www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-vz-24.8755). The OP's rifle falls into this range.

2. John Wall posted Gunboards thread #10 on January 28, 2009 that said “The true story regarding the 1937 date-crested Vz.24's explained 35 years ago in Otakar Franek's 4 volume history of Ceskoslovensjka Zbrojovka Brno. The rifles were directly purchased from CZB by the Japanese Government on 1938 at the time of the signing of the German-Italian-Japanese defense treaty. C-series rifles have been documented with Pacific Theater of Operations (PTO) capture/import paper from the Philippines. All C-series rifles I have seen have serial numbers in high 40,000's to mid-to-high 50,000 range. Mine is in the C47,000 range.” (See www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-navy-vz-24.89545)

In addition, Ball, MMROTW, page 123, says the Japanese Vz24 rifles date to 1938 (not sure if this is shipping date r manufactured date?) and that 40,000 Vz24s where purchased directly by the Imperial Japanese Navy. Ball cites his sources as the Otakar Franek book mentioned by Wall above, as well as two other sources. The three refs (I think all in Czech language) are:

Zbrane Pro Cely Svet, (Arms for the Whole World), by Otakar Franek, published by Blok in the Czech language, in Brno,
Czechoslovakia in 1970, (This is Volume 2 in his four-volume history of CZB.) Rifle production information is summarized in
Tables 2 and 3, on pages 167 to 175. Translated into English by Paul Slunecko.

Ceskoslovenska Rucni Palne Zbrane a Kulomety (Czechoslovak Small Arms and Machine Guns) by Col. Dr. Miroslav
Sada, published by Nase Vojko in the Czechoslovak language, Prague, 1971. Translated by the U.S. Army Foreign Science
& Technology Center, Charlottesville, VA 1973.

“Cs. Zbrojni export do japonska” (Export to Japan in the late 30s) by David Pazdera, and published on the internet at
www.guns-info.cz/news

Great reply and thank you especially for the citations! That last link is dead. You wouldn’t happen to have one that works for that site or any of the other ones you cited would you

 

Michael:

Looks like you received a very nice example of a scarce Japanese issued rifle. Congrats!

And the selection of rifles in the background look very nice too.

 

^^^, +1. Lots of history, and well-known past in the case of these rifles. Congrats, from here, as well. I don't think the high price will bother you very long; it will be forgotten, quickly.

 

As I tend to hear people say.. "you didn't overpay, you just paid early"

Also Cheers @Cleo45 for sharing all that information with us! I was not aware that there was an established serial range for the Japanese contract vz24's!

 

Have one that is Century import marked and supposedly came out of Romania, stock is force-matched but otherwise matching

Original stock number lined-through below the current one

 

I think it’s fascinating how relatively little documentation we’ve got on these. Interesting to see same series but import stamped to prove it didn’t make it over to Asia. Weird.

 

Really great find, the Vz 24 is one of my favorites along with most Japanese small arms.

 

First two refs are listed in the table in Ball's Mauser Military Rifles of the World, summarizing Czech-built Mauser-pattern rifles. Suspect those refs are in hard copy only but might be available for purchase on-line. I recall a couple folks here on Gunboards lamenting that they could not find a copy of this ref anywhere. Might be able to get it at one or more of the lending libraries in Europe?

BTW - the table in Ball's MMROTW was put together by the late John Wall, a truly amazing milsurp collector

I tried to find the guns-info CZ ref as well and ran into the same issue. Maybe somebody out there saved this write-up when it was still on-line, or perhaps has a print of it they can scan and make available?

 

You might try posting this on the Czech Weapons Board as well. Some good knowledgeable folks there may give you some feedback as well as here!

 

I have one that I really like, beautiful rifles all...

 

Is the sling on the op’s rifle Czech? I’ve not seen a buckle / attachment piece like that on a Japanese sling before.

 

That’s correct. These were issued with standard VZ24 slings and bayonets. Now I’m on the hunt for a Japanese used VZ24 bayonet, which are also kanji marked. The hunt always continues!

 

And the Japanese boxed rifle ammo for vz24

 

Bachmanw, you've got some good points and info. Enjoyed reading the post. I picked up a couple vet P-series VZs years ago, and both came with bayonet, muzzle protector, and sling. Maybe you understand what's been said; maybe you don't, but to clarify, the sling for the P series is unlike any other Japanese sling. I've always assumed it's Czech. Someone else will have to address that issue. But I've always found the kanji on the sling, usually in the form of numbers. Both rifles went on down the road if I remember correctly. Don't think I still have either. Will have to check. And the muzzle cover was Czech also which I'd assumed came with the rifles from the factory, as well as sling and bayonet. Most all P-series rifles I've examined over the years had the special sling, no variations. If I can't find the rifle in question, I should be able to find some photos and post.

 

Here’s another interesting piece from Ball’s book - a VZ24 with a modified bayonet lug for the Type 30.

It looks a lot like my modified Dutch M95 one. I posted about that one here:https://www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-modified-dutch-m95-knil.1240532/#post-11247574

 

Argentina did the same sort of thing with their Riccheri adapter

 

Going through Mr. Austin Adachi’s website at 海軍陸戦隊史保存会 and found this one. Do these look like VZ24s to you too? Hard to see but I think those are H-bands on the front. Not sure on tbe translation. Part of the Mie Naval Air Force unit.

 

Serial number ranges for these, to the best of my knowledge, are based on collector observation. The Czech records of numbers shipped for the Japan contract are lost. It is believed that the order was pulled from existing inventory; mostly from the P Series, with a few from the C Series. They have the 1937 chamber date. These guns were already produced - not a special run.

As a side note, most (if not all) of the import marked guns were imported from Romania.

 

Glad you posted those comments, Nambu1810. I'd been putting off getting involved for several days. To illustrate your observations, our next door neighbor when growing up brought 3 rifles back from Yokohama; ragged T38, mint naval special, and mint VZ-24 serial P0220. I can remember climbing up in his attic to check the rifles out. I volunteered to clean them up and put a good coating of RIG on them. And, but of course, I worried the devil out of him for the Czech. No dice, no reason to sell. It's nice to say 40k-60k range, but I've got VZ serial numbers recorded from the P series and Japan all over the map. The sling usually guarantees for me whether Japanese contract or not, but even that could be suspect.

 

My full ammo box I kept. Sadly had to sell rifle and bayonet for our daughters college funding. Looking to replace rifle and sling if anyone is selling or knows of one

 

With all the export vz24s made, I've always seen conflicting information on the history of some of them. I have an all matching really nice 1937 no prefix Vz24. Some people have claimed they were made for the Japanese but never got delivered. I have no idea of who had it or where it come from.

 

I don't think any were "made for the Japanese" all indications were the orders were filled from existing stocks.

 

Very nice P series example with a sling! I bought two VZ-24's while looking for a IJN P series out of impatience, sold them, and got lucky finding one here on the Trader for a good price. Didn't have an original sling, though.

 

I have one too, but the bolt doesn't match and has a bent handle. No sling or bayonet.

There are some interesting markings in the stock. Are they Chinese?

The bolt matches itself (except for the safety):

Can anyone explain this bolt handle marking:

 

I have one too, but the bolt doesn't match and has a bent handle. No sling or bayonet.
View attachment 4214723

View attachment 4214724

View attachment 4214725

There are some interesting markings in the stock. Are they Chinese?
View attachment 4214726

View attachment 4214727

View attachment 4214728

View attachment 4214729

The bolt matches itself (except for the safety):
View attachment 4214730

View attachment 4214731

Can anyone explain this bolt handle marking:
View attachment 4214732

The rifle seems to be a Chinese contract Vz24.
The bolt is from a 1939 Chinese contract K98k.

 

This post probably won’t add new information, but I’m trying to compile the nuggets from various other threads on the forum and share (again) my new rifle I received from @geladen via Empire Arms.

I received my first 8mm rifle today - a Japanese IJN contracted VZ24. It was sold from Empire Arms and it was priced in my humble opinion a little steep for a bolt mismatch. However, I’ve been looking for one for a couple years and the vast majority of my collection has been purchased at below market, so I decided to pull the trigger. Pricing these has to be hard given how uncommon they are; I winced but didn’t hesitate so it was probably priced fairly.

With the Imperial Japanese Army’s control of the arsenals, the Navy was left to find additional small arms. This resulted in the Type I Carcano contracts through Italy, a small number of acquired K98s, and the Czech VZ24 contract.

Mine is a P series with matching receiver and stock and a P series bolt (mismatched). It’s in really great shape, including the bore. No import mark. And it has a sling with white painted kanji. Given those factors, I’m confident it saw Japanese service, as there’s some debates on these only going to China. As for the mismatch bolt, like many Arisakas, the bolts were removed by GIs on the transit home and issued mismatching bolts upon debarking.

Interesting thing too is that it’s Czech-army accepted. It has the “E3 (Rampant Lion) 38” above the serial. At the time, CZ BRNO was essentially state/Army-owned. Archival research showed the Army accepted rifles but didn’t issue them and when Japan received its contract in 1938 or 39, the now German-occupied Czechs issued these to Japan from the BRNO stocks.

In addition to the P series, C series (marked only on stock, not receiver) seem to have been a Chinese contract given the poor condition you find them in and import stamps. However, some documented bringbacks show that the Japanese captured these as well and put them to use.

I’ve included the section on these rifles from Military Rifles of Japan, as well as Ordinance Went up Front, a memoir from a U.S. Army Ordinance veteran’s experience encountering enemy small arms during the war. I’ve also included a few contemporary photos posted by other members and Geladen’s photo of the sling Kanji, as unfortunately the paint rubbed off in shipping.

All told a really interesting subset of Japanese collecting, and I’m excited to have it in my collection.

Thanksfor bringing this up and I too wish there was more definitive information on these. I have never heard of your conjecture that this occured after the annexation of Czechoslovakia. If I understand correctly the Germans officially invaded March 15, 1939. They had previosly annexed the Sudentenland in October of 1938. Since the guns in question are all dated (I believe) 1937 and 1938 this seems plausible.

I don't think BRNO (where the main factory was) was part of the Sudentenland.

Your thought that these were mostly (or at least in some part) from the Chinese contract, and then captured by the Japanese is also interesting. I don't believe I have ever seen documentation saying the C Block went to China.

I had copied this from a for sale ad a while back when doing some looking into this.
In the late 1930’s the Japanese Navy was forced to source the small arms it needed from Europe because the Japanese Army was allocated everything the Home Arsenal’s could produce for the war in China. The Famous Czech Firm of Brno had large numbers of Vz24 Rifles on hand for export and they were actively selling them to both the Nationalist Chinese Government and later to the Japanese Navy and also to Several European Nations such as Romania and Slovakia. These rifles are identified by the “P” suffix serial number, however there was a special group of rifles that were produced at Brno’s Bystrica Factory and they are marked with a “C” suffix only on the stock. This is one of those very rare rifles, and they are confirmed to have been entirely shipped solely to the Imperial Japanese Navy and no other attribution has been found. The Japanese Naval use of these rifles is well documented, they armed landing parties from ships and the very Famous Special Naval Landing forces, the Japanese Marines. Large cashes of these rifles are known to have come from Truk and the Philippines as well as the Main Japanese Naval Bases of Sasebo and Yokouska so it is likely that this un-issued rifle came from one of these places.

Bystrika is today located in the Slovak republic as you can see in the map.

One thing I would like to know for sure is the issue of the Czech military proofmark. I have seen it definitevy stated that the Japanese Contract Guns, did not have them (no export guns did), maybe had them, and did have them.

Here is a thread that Isome time back trying to get some clarification on the origin of these (it does have some references in it, not sure if you saw this while during your research here).

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-contract-vz-24.1214326/#post-10980997

In that thread I was asking about the use of the traditional Czech front sight protector. However; since we know there were Japanese ones, and I read somewhere that each rifle was supplied with one and a sling etc. (wish I remembered where I read that) - I think we can say they did not use them. Even thought the one in the National Archive has one.

I have a C-Block (45k) with a P Block (51k) mismatched bolt. It is in really nice shape and has no import marks. I believe it to be a bring back.

So I am not sure I agree with your conjecture that the C Block was a "Chinese Contract" captured by the Japanese. Most of the C block rifles I have seen are pretty pristine.

One way to eliminate a rifle as being Japanese (IMHO) is the presence of a import stamp - unless these found there way into China from Japan after the war. The Chinese would have been mch more amenable to getting an 8mm wepaon (which their military was mostly based on) than the other way around.

I also don't believe that having a Japanese marked sling is a reliable way to say a rifle was from a Japanese Contract.

Here is an article published in the September issue of Banzai (which I asked if it was ok to post here) on the subject guns. That article makes a statement saying that the C-Block is a previosly unreported series (which is obviosly not correct), but that does not diminish the information in the rest of the article.

Unfortunately unless and until some record of ordering or recieving these rifles in Japan or the Contract with serial numbers blocks is found; and that does not seem likely, there will still be a degree of uncertainty about these guns.

 

Fred - thanks for the info. I was not questioning what sling was used on the Japanese VZ24s; agree completely it was the Czech VZ24 sling with Kanji. I think they even make a repro one. The point I was trying to make was; just becuase a VZ24 has a Japanese sling on it unfortunately doesn't guarantee that it was a Japanese Contract rifle. Unless there is iron clad provenance that the rifle came home with that sling; there is always the possibility that it got added at some point. Although I agree there aren't a lot of Japanese marked VZ 24 slings floating around in the wild. I have seen a couple though.

In my original post https://www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-contract-vz-24.1214326/#post-10980997 I was referring to the Czech sight guard being used. That was because the listing I found from the National Fireams Museum had one on it.

Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno Japanese Contract VZ 24 Bolt Action Rifle

This Czech Kar 98k pattern rifle was made under contract for the Japanese government and was intended for use by the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (the counterpart of the U. S. Marine Corps). SN 58555

It's cool to see the rifle you show with the Mauser style one on it. Beautiful rifle by the way.

Do you remember if the ones you had, had the Lion Date proof for CZ military acceptance?

I also remembered where I read about the guns being dilivered with sling, bayonet, frog, etc. It was Frank's book on Naval Specials. See below.