[Logan1902]

If you want to make a wire spring, they are easy to make from wire spring stock,,sometimes called 'music wire'.

Worked like a charm! Thanks for the directions and encouragement to try. I was successful on my third attempt:

(L-R) Attempt 1-2-3 (final) and the broken original at right.

Broken original (L) and new DIY (R)

Installed

View of slot at rear of trigger to locate forward part of spring

View of milled area inside trigger guard, behind trigger, for spring to bear against

 

[ktr]

Excellent! Nice job.
People can do a lot more than they think they can sometimes.

So what if you fail a couple times or more. Success is a nice pay-day.

 

[Logan1902]

I appreciate that, ktr. I was really pleased with how it turned out. I had so much extra music wire, I knew I had plenty of material to go through many iterations. But I was still pretty surprised when attempt #3 turned out to be good to go!

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

Are the 722, 822, and 922 rifle all basically the same design?

 

[Logan1902]

Are the 722, 822, and 922 rifle all basically the same design?

Basically, yes. The 722 has a short knob on the right side of the rolling block to open the breech. The 822 and 922 have a lever on the bottom to operate the rolling block and open the breech. Althogh I've never handled one, I would say the 822 and 922 are a bit nicer with the lever, especially the extra leverage for spent casing extraction. I don't know if they will also push back the hammer and cock it or not. On the 722, you don't really have enough leverage to push the hammer back comfortably to cock it. So on the 722, the manual of arms is cock the hammer, then open the breech, which extracts the spent casing upon opening. Sometimes you have to open the breech smartly to get the casing to pop free.

As far as the differences between the 822 and 922, I'm not sure what they would be. Do a Google image search and you can see some 822 examples with open levers and some with loop levers like a cowboy gun. Looks like all the 922 examples doing an image search have the open levers.

 

[DK PHILLIPS In Memoriam]

I had a 44 1/2 action take down, economy model of walnut hill..taught grand kids on it..
standard velocity excellent..HV spit on you!

thats a nice gun you have...very nice ..wish I’d keep mine.

 

[ktr]

The 822 has it's breech block and lever as one piece.
The 'locking bolt' of the mechanism is the cut in the hammer just below the face of it. It engages the block when closed and the hammer drops and locks the two together.
When the hammer is cocked, the 'over center' toggle action betw the face of the breech and the face of the hammer is what keeps the lever/block from drooping or fall open on it's own.
A worn breech face often is the case on these and the action will fall open on their own. Some of the STevens Boys rifles operate the under the same principal and the same problem.

The 922 has a separate dropping breech block which is pulled down and then pushed up into position by the lever and by way of a separate link pinned to both parts.
(On the 932 (32cal) and the 938 (38cal) the link has an extra lower hole in it so the owner can drop the block down and push the link pin out. Then reassemble the block to the alternate pin hole location. This changes the height that the block is pushed up into position,,and therefore the firing pin is also moved in
position. It changes the rifle from a RF to Centerfire.
The idea was to allow either of these to fire 32RF or 32Colt in the 932,,or 38RF or 38S&W in the 938.

They also made a 3922,,the Jr. Schuetzen on the 922 action
The same Jr Schuetzen in 25-20 SingleShot (not 25-20wcf) caliber Model 3925
The 922 has the breech block supported on the sides and at the back by machined into place shoulders in the frame. The frames originally of cast steel.
A very stout V spring assists the 922 in snapping the block & lever into the up and down position and is located in the front lower portion of the frame in front of the lever pivot.

Any of the H&A Boys Rifles are a good choice for rebuild and use IMO.
The 722 is the easiest to work over. The 922's are starting to command some money of late. They used to be the orphans of the community with everyone wanting a Stevens.

Lots of variations in bbl style, sights, ect. Just like most any of the era's Mfg'rs Boys rifles.
I think H&R also made and sold the rifles with the trade name 'Bay State' on them and probably others.

I have the one Bubba'd 722 left to work on.
I sold a very nice 3922 Jr Schuetzen a while back

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

It sounds like I would want a 922 then. There is one on GB now that is about to go for ridiculous prices.

Thank you for the enlightenment ktr

 

[Wood and steel]

Like Logan 102 I also restored my grandfathers hopkins and Allen 722. In my search for information on the rifle I stumbled on the complete blueprints for the rifle. It appears the Early rifles used flat springs and pins for the working parts. The later model used coil springs and screws for the working parts this is the model I have. With the blueprints I was able to reproduce the trigger which I was missing. I printed the blueprint of the trigger, sized the print by comparing it to the frame, glued it to my steel and worked the steel to shape with a hack saw and files, with a little fitting it works fine. The blueprints can be found by searching for “digital collections McCracken research library” when there click on “firearms” next click on “browse all” then enter “Hopkins and Allen 722” then you should find them. The blueprints were drawn by Winchester, figure that one out. There are a tremendous number of Winchester drawings of guns, parts, jigs, special tool etc, including a drawing of a win m94 with a box magazine like a m95. Perhaps this information will be of help to someone in the future.

 

[Logan1902]

The blueprints can be found by searching for “digital collections McCracken research library” when there click on “firearms” next click on “browse all” then enter “Hopkins and Allen 722” then you should find them. The blueprints were drawn by Winchester, figure that one out. There are a tremendous number of Winchester drawings of guns, parts, jigs, special tool etc, including a drawing of a win m94 with a box magazine like a m95. Perhaps this information will be of help to someone in the future.

Thanks for the blueprint info, Wood and steel! Congrats on the trigger-making, great creative solution to the missing part problem!

 

[Logan1902]

I didn't do too bad! Specification is Music Wire 0.0377" and I used Music Wire - Size 16-1/2, 0.038".

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

Decided to Frankenstein this thread to ask about Hopkins & Allen 922 parts.

The good news is that I finally found one.

The bad news is that its missing the lever spring, its screw, and the extractor (see diagram)

GPC/Numrich is no bueno, and Jack First doesn't even list Hopkins & Allen.

My question is this: Is there anything that could be adapted to work? I'm thinking the extractor will be the tough one.

 

[Logan1902]

Decided to Frankenstein this thread to ask about Hopkins & Allen 922 parts.

The good news is that I finally found one.

The bad news is that its missing the lever spring, its screw, and the extractor (see diagram)

GPC/Numrich is no bueno, and Jack First doesn't even list Hopkins & Allen.

My question is this: Is there anything that could be adapted to work? I'm thinking the extractor will be the tough one.

View attachment 4058526

Maybe you can take this 722 extractor blueprint to a machinist and have it fabricated (if it's the same for a 922). It's a pretty simple part.

Extractor blueprint link
H&A 722 blueprints
Fushigi Ojisan

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

Gonna Frankenstein this thread again to ask: Which tang sights will fit the Hopkins & Allen 922? My Google-Fu tells me that either a Lyman "B" code will work, or one for any of the various Marlin rimfires. Figured I would ask if anyone else has one with a tang sight that can confirm codes.

 

[ktr]

One from a Marlin 39 fits and I put one on my H&A 3922 when I restored/upgraded it.

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

39 or 39A? I'm getting mixed messages in my web searches where some show the screws a really close together, and others where they are further apart.

Any chance you know the code on your Marlin sight so I can look it up?

 

[ktr]

The rifle is gone to another owner.
I suspect the sight fitted the Model 39/97.
I have several Model 97's and used one of the sights for those 'project rifles'.
I've never had a Model 39A rifle in my life, especially an early one that would have taken a tang site.
So I can't say that the 97, the 39 and early 39A didn't all take the same tang sight.

I'll pull the tang sight off of another Model 97 and see what the marking is on that one.

 

[ktr]

A quick check of the Lyman tang site codes shows:

..Marlin Model '92 rifle in 32 cal, Ballard rifles & Hopkins & Allen rifles use tang site 'B'

..Marlin '92 rifle in 22cal, Marlin 1897, Marlin 39 use tang site 'H'

Either of these will have the same screw hole spacing on the base.
The difference in the sites is the elevation shaft height,,or sometimes just the limiting 'pin' inside the shaft that determines how low the sight can be set.

I do not see a separate application or even a listing for the Marlin Model 39A.
The list may may pre-day the intro of the 39A.

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

Semi-related, I had picked up a tang sight for a different Marlin rifle (which didn't fit) but it looks like it will work on my 39A which has just the tang screw and thats it.

The late Ken Bean sold me a Marlin sight that fit on my Colt Lightning small frame, so I suspect whatever that sight was will fit the 922.

I have a Marbles part number, 0009827, so I may try that as well.

 

[ktr]

Marbles sight base # chart shows a 'M1' for the 'Hopkins & Allen Junior in .22 and 32 calibers'. Also fits Marlin Ballard.
(The 'Junior' was a Model designation for the #922).

Many of the sight bases will fit more than the rifle they are marked specifily for.
The screw hole spacing fits in those instances, but the elevation shaft height may not be the correct one for the caliber, model, front sight of the other rifle it just happens to fit.
It may be too short and not give you enough to properly site-in the rifle. Or not crank down low enough as well for the same issue going the other way.
So at the time, you bought the specific site for your model and Caliber.

Some are actually interchangeable betw a couple or three different makes and models/caliber of rifles and the charts will indicate that. It just happens that way.

We don't have that luxury of just ordering/buying the correct one anymore and the high cost of any of them makes us play the 'if it fits, I'll take it' game .
Sometimes just replacing the front sight with an elevation difference can make up for having the wrong elevation shaft height on the tang sight.
Some of the tang sites offered for sale have the wrong elevation shaft in place for what the original site/rifle & caliber it was made and marked as. Many are missing the limiting pin inside the shaft so you know they've been disassembled.
These things get changed and replaced to make them good for resale. It's hard to know by just looking at one if it's the right assembly.

Sometimes the tang site is just there on the rifle because it looks nice.