The reason for my post is that I came across an article about head space that said that older milsurps should be checked for proper head space as some may be dangerous to shoot; but, I think back to 15 to 20 years or so ago when I collected older Mausers (I sold them all several years ago and am now getting back into collecting and shooting) I shot those old Mausers all the time and never gave head space a second thought. Nothing wrong ever happened and i never saw any high pressure signs nor any other abnormal peculiarities with the cases. I shot only hand loads and kept the loads on the mild side as I did not hunt, but only target shot.
Joe

 

Just because you've never experienced a problem, doesn't mean that the potential risk isn't there.

 

What worked 20 years ago, should also work now. Don't see why not.......

 

I've been collecting and shooting milsurp rifles for 40 years. Used the same attitude as you shared in your post above. After thousands of rounds of different calibers, in many rifles, I have NEVER had a problem. The headspace discussions get a bit..."overworked" in many of these forums.

Last comment, a few of the rifles were not in... good condition. I called them, rats.

 

I bought a 7.65 Mauser GO gauge from www.jgsprecision.com.

There are two specs, one for 1891 chamber and one for 1909.

There is a lot of controversy since the original specs are not well documented.

The GO gauge that I use is marked 1.8210.

I believe that they are a special order. Pretty expensive and I think I waited a couple months to get mine.

What I did (credit to Fal Grunt) was to buy just the GO Gauge and the buy a package of thin steel sheets from 0.001 to 0.010. I cut little disks and attach them to the bottom of the GO gauge with grease to measure the headspace from the GO minimum.

JGS gave me a diagram labeled 0094 that lists GO as 1.8210, No Go as 1.8270 and field as 1.8310. So I use that to assess my rifle.

The PPU commercial ammo is less than this since 1909 spec is 0.010 shorter and they want to fit both.

I recommend you contact JGS if you decide to do this.

Remember that you need to remove the extractor from the bolt body when measuring head space. I like to take the barrel receiver out of the stock and remove the ejector as well.

Probably overkill but its cheaper than joining a country club.

 

Btw there are two 8mm gauges. The model typically available seems to be for most types and the other model for the older Gew 88 types but I am the wrong guy for details on this.

 

When ever a gun issue is presented on the error net guys scream “IT’S HEADSPACE!”… Well it really almost never is.

If you did not reload, you would never know if you had a headspace issue. It shortens case life if you full length size cases but it doesn’t blow up guns. How many cases have you seen where 308 rounds have been fired in a 30-06 rifle and come out almost straight walled? I have seen plenty at the range. What is that? About 1/2 inch of excessive headspace?

It’s nice to know if your rifle is in spec and “tight as new”, but my generation has been shooting milsurps since the glory days of the 1950s into the Information age of today, and I think most get by with “test shots” away from your face and fired case inspection.

Am I in the Minority?

 

Do I need one? If I want to shoot some of my collection of Mausers, should I check the head space of the ones I want to shoot? No problem in finding an 8mm gauge, but I can not find a 7.65x53 gauge anywhere. Is there a gauge in another caliber that would work for the 7,65x53? I am thinking the field gauge would be all I would need (if any), but I could be wrong.
Joe

Pacific Tool and Gauge has the gauges for like $55 each

 

If you dont know the 7x57 is the same one for 257 Roberts. I used to rechamber Mauser rifles years ago. Still have many reamers and gauges

 

The internet --that great repository of misinformation disseminated by the ignorant--has turned "checking headspace" into a shibboleth inciting both fear on one hand, and complacency on the other. In well over 50 years of shooting dozens of milsurp Mausers, Mannlichers, Lee-Enfields, and Mosins, I can't recall ever checking headspace, or even worrying about it --even though many of those guns had mismatched bolts. I'm still here, and never wrecked a gun.

The concept of headspace is widely misunderstood. Many shooters don't understand when and why it is important, or inconsequential. They do not know the difference between chamber headspace (a purely nominal empty-chamber dimension from bolt face to shoulder-stop that assures that any ammunition manufactured between minimum and maximum dimensions will fit) and cartridge headspace, which is the actual clearance when the chamber is loaded with a particular cartridge. If you think all cartridge cases of a given caliber are made to the same dimensions and produce the same headspace, guess again.

In military bolt actions, headspace checking is a waste of time (and often is done incorrectly, so the results are misleading). Unless you are a gunsmith who re-barrels guns, the gauges are a waste of money. Even in semi-auto and full-automatic rifles, any headspace problem --if there is one--is usually insufficient cartridge headspace for the ammo being used, which prevents complete locking of the breech; this can have dramatically unpleasant consequences. Excessive chamber headspace merely leads to case separations, which are a nuisance but not particularly dangerous.

Exponentially more important for safety is the mechanical and structural condition of the gun (something ignored by forum congratulators who blithely pass judgment from a photo or two and write, "Check the headspace and you're good to go."). No milsurp should be fired from the shoulder before a careful inspection--under magnification if anything is suspect--of its structural integrity (search especially for deformation or cracks), the security of its trigger/sear engagement, and the functionality of its safety features. Remember, you may know nothing about its history.

The same is true about the ammunition. Statistically, defective or improper cartridges are responsible for more malfunctions than any other cause. Handloads, unfortunately, are a major contributor. Inspect your surplus ammo before shooting it (break down a few of the worst-looking rounds and look at the insides) and inspect your fired brass afterward. Trouble signs often can be spotted if you simply look.

M

 

If you do want to check headspace, there is the question of whether to remove the extractor or not.

My choice is to first remove the bolt completely from the receiver and then carefully insert the gauge's rim between the extractor and the bolt face, then insert bolt-with-gauge into the receiver. I would never try to feed and chamber the gauge as if it were a round from the magazine - though there are plenty of Youtube videos showing that. There are also those who drop the gauge into the chamber and then close the bolt (with extractor!) onto it. Makes me cringe. Don't do any of that.

If you do remove the extractor and the Mauser has a third (rear) safety lug (e.g. type 98), consider removing the extractor collar as well. Why? Because if you insert the bolt without its extractor into the receiver without also removing the extractor collar, the two little lugs on the collar will inevitably become trapped in the recess for the third safety lug. At that point, the bolt is stuck and cannot be moved forward or backward. To fix this, you will need a long very narrow angled clamp to reach in and squeeze the lugs together so you can remove the bolt. Guess how I know this. However, removing the collar is a bit risky if you don't have good snap-ring pliers to spread the collar to remove it and then replace it. The risk is you may warp the collar. Guess how I know this.

 

....

... if you insert the bolt without its extractor into the receiver without also removing the extractor collar, the two little lugs on the collar will inevitably become trapped in the recess for the third safety lug. At that point, the bolt is stuck and cannot be moved forward or backward. To fix this, you will need a long very narrow angled clamp to reach in and squeeze the lugs together so you can remove the bolt. Guess how I know this. However, removing the collar is a bit risky if you don't have good snap-ring pliers to spread the collar to remove it and then replace it. The risk is you may warp the collar. Guess how I know this.

Two excellent reasons to avoid the compulsive and unnecessary exercise of "checking headspace".

The extractor collar should never be removed except for replacement.

M

 

Based on my own experiences and from the majority of the above posts, I believe I will not worry about head space with my Mausers. They are in excellent shape and appear to have been well taken care of. Even if the head space is off, I don't think my anemic reloads will cause the rifles any harm. Thanks to all those who replied.
Joe

 

Every published reloading manual I have, many dating back to the 1950's, strongly recommend having the headspace of military surplus rifles checked. Those folks are way more experienced than I, so I tend to follow their recommendation.

 

I like mgmikes comment....This is what I did in days past on the cheep Surplus military firearms.
see this ancient SRF post:

Buying first surplus rifle, what to look for - Surplus Rifle Forum - www.surplusrifleforum.com

I only would buy matching bolt to receiver rifles. I dropped a FIELD headspace gauge in every rifle I purchased. If the bolt closed down on a FIELD test, I passed on purchasing the rifle because just too many specimens would pass.
Then I inspect the metal - the bore, bolt, chamber, trigger pull and bolt operation, and safety.

I would always want a Surplus rifle with a matching bolt. I'd check the barrel for crown and rifling wear. Gauge the bore and inspect the crown. I'd feel for barrel bulges or look for tiny barrel cracks. If I purchased a rifle I took the action out of the wood for a true inspection. At the show, check the bolt, check the trigger pull, snap, and operation of the bolt and ejector. The pull the bolt and inspect the bolt's face, lugs, firing pin hole, firing pin and ejector. Does the bolt's action feel smooth as butter or is it gritty and rough to close or too tight? Does the bolt have any tiny cracks at its edges or battered or cracked lugs? Is an erosion ring present around the firing pin hole? Is the firing pin hole oblonged. What is condition of the firing pin tip? Is it bent, too sharp, too short, cut?

Does the rifle chamber and extract a dummy round? Is the stock intact , no cracks and an original finish with correct cartouches. Then I'd buy it, take it home, and do a proper inspection of the bolt and receiver and barrel out of the wood.

I only found one Arisaaka that had a hole drilled in the bottom to demill the rifle that was hidden by the wood. Huge mistake if I had fired that. I test fire in a set of tires then read the brass. Is the brass sooty, backed out or over flattened primer? Is the cartridge enlarged or bulged to one side? Primer hit too deep or shallow. Scratches or bumps on the case from the chamber? Burrs from the extractor? Does the fired case extract normally?

So not to bore everyone, you get the idea... There are lots of attributes to inspect and consider as well as possible headspace. I have never found a $49 Mosin arsenal rebuild that failed a Field gauge(the gauge was a waste of money), I never found an RC 8mm Mauser that failed a field gauge. Nor a $100 Berthier. However, plenty of the $50 Turk Mausers with miss matched bolts closed down on a FIELD gauge, as well as a few British SMLEs and JC Enfields, some Us M1917 30-06 Enfields. I never purchased the cheap Spanish or Chinese junk surplus.

So I am an old fool that would drop a coin headspace gauge or the gauge that slipped under the extractor in rifles at shows back in the day when rifles were around $100. But, I consider the inspection of the action: barrel & bolt to be more important. There are many factors to consider metal, stock, bore and bolt condition, then of course it has to have an intact finish on the stock, matching parts, original cleaning rod and sling, maybe papers if you are lucky, and then be up to snuff inspection wise for me to drop a coin at todays prices!

 

As regards headspace:

QUOTE:

Excessive head clearance is undesirable for several reasons. It can allow a cartridge to slide forward beyond the distance within which the firing pin has the ability to adequately indent the primer for reliable ignition (though extractor hooks may act as the replacement headspace determinant in this situation). In chamber designs that don't fully support the case head, excess headspace can allow a case to expand excessively, which can thin or crack open the brass. Thus, the cartridge can rupture rearward, which releases hot gases under high pressure that can damage the firearm and injure or even kill the shooter or bystanders.
If a chamber's headspace is too short, the gun may be unable to go fully into battery (close and lock completely), preventing firing.
UNQUOTE

At this juncture, I will leave the Field of Battle to those that have no qualms with getting a facefull of hot gasses and possibly metal fragments.

 

As regards headspace:

QUOTE:

Excessive head clearance is undesirable for several reasons. It can allow a cartridge to slide forward beyond the distance within which the firing pin has the ability to adequately indent the primer for reliable ignition (though extractor hooks may act as the replacement headspace determinant in this situation). In chamber designs that don't fully support the case head, excess headspace can allow a case to expand excessively, which can thin or crack open the brass. Thus, the cartridge can rupture rearward, which releases hot gases under high pressure that can damage the firearm and injure or even kill the shooter or bystanders.
If a chamber's headspace is too short, the gun may be unable to go fully into battery (close and lock completely), preventing firing.
UNQUOTE

At this juncture, I will leave the Field of Battle to those that have no qualms with getting a facefull of hot gasses and possibly metal fragments.

The risk is there but not quantified…it’s all ”can happen”, “may happen”. That’s life. Driving on the highway may result in instant death, swimming in the sea can result in consumption by sharks, unprotected sex can result in STDs which may result in death. Do we still drive, swim and screw? I think fatal headspace gun deaths even injuries are beyond RARE occurrences.
Given the number of case head failures/ruptures (failures not head separations) from defective cartridge cases that me and my friends have survived….I will keep on shooting.

 

The only thing the military cared about headspace was it big enough would allow any cartridge to chamber and tight enough to set it off . Headspace is not the side clearance that expands the dia of the case . The rest is { quote ] BS { unquote } . Anything else is a broken gun part .

 

I have no proof of this, but.... I do believe that most case head separations resulting in hot gas escaping rearward, towards the shooter, are caused by incorrect case sizing during the handloading process.
The best illustration for proof of this is, as described above, when people shoot 308 ammo in a 30-06 chambered rifle, with no harmful results. My guess is that as long as this happens with factory loaded, brand new ammo, nothing bad happens. If however, it was hand loaded ammo using cases that were FL sized several times, incorrectly, then there could be disastrous results.

 

do you reload? How do you incorrectly FL resize? Disastrous results in handloads are the result of incorrect powder charges

 

What is the significance of a sooty case when evaluating fired cases for problems?

My first batch or 7.65x53 reloads has a definite amount of black around the neck of the case that does not rub off. The case from the first time I fire a PPU commercial round in the same rifle does not have the black.

I am using Hornady 3130 174g round nose flat bottom bullets, 39.9g and 42.2g Hogdon H380 power and a Tula large rifle primer.

If this is cosmetic only, should I tumble clean the brass anyway to avoid the black causing friction when I resize the cartridge case?

The AI chat bot suggested this may be due to incomplete combustion, dirty burning powder or dirty burning primer.

 

Joe,
Measure the neck one of your unfired loaded rounds, an unfired PPU, and then the neck of a fired round. The problem may be as simple as insufficient neck tension, due to thin brass. Possible solutions could be different dies or different brass. FWIW, ball powder is dirtier than stick powder, so maybe switching powder would fix it.

 

I think is it good practice to segregate fired brass based on gun fired and neck size. More accurate and longer brass life and eliminated the head space concern. I thought examination of the fired brass would show if anything was way out of wack. But not having seen any dramatic problem that is kind of a wag. I guess at the least one would want to make some measurements. I mean if worried or interested. Just an eyeball and neck sizing seems to work for me. I maybe in a minority but I only shoot fresh ammo. I guess a luxury of not firing a lot of rounds in any one gun.

 

Thanks. I will do that going forward.

I just loaded the remaining 22 cases today. I will measure tomorrow. I plan to go shooting later this week.

 

The only gauge I have is an 8mm field gauge. I bought it years ago when the cheap Turkish mauser were plentiful and I was finding so many with missmatched bolts. I figured it was cheap insurance and helped prevent possible issues.

 

Getting back to the original question, Go and No-Go gauges are intended for new barrel installation. People that do that work all of the time, on the same equipment, may not even need the gauges. Field gauges are sort of an armorers tool to check for lug setback. They represent the maximum tolerance for continued service. Nearly all military rifles will close on a No-Go, so a field gauge would be the appropriate gauge. The 7.65X53 is especially problematic because of it's long history and manufacturing variations. You could have gauges from multiple sources, and get multiple results.

While I wouldn't tell someone not to check headspace (I have gauges, and do it myself), I wouldn't be too concerned if it was a caliber that I didn't have a gauge for, or if it closed on a Field gauge. It's just one of many checks that I perform. However, as already stated, military chambers are GENEROUS. Whether it passes a headspace check, or not, the brass is going to grow. think of a .303 British. Headspace on rimmed rounds is completely different than rimless. Compare a fired (in a properly headspaced Enfield) .303 to an unfired case, and you will be amazed at how much the case grows. Think about fireforming wildcats - even just an AI version of the original - and how much the case grows. So what you do afterwards is important. When the brass grows it gets thinner. If you full-length size the fired brass, it is not going to last. Thicker brass can help. Annealing will help, but neck-sizing, especially using bushing dies, is what I would recommend. So if you know the conditions, inspect your brass, don't overwork things, then you should be OK. Much more critical is the condition of the primer pocket. They usually get loose before the case fails. I've seen many blown primers, but very few case failures.

Prudence is justified. Not all action designs handle gas equally. The Remington 700 is one of the worse.

 

Checking headspace is an essential safety precaution, especially for older firearms. You might not find a specific gauge, but a field gauge in a similar caliber like 7.62x54R could work. Known that a field gauge is the minimum required, but a go and no-go gauge set provides a more comprehensive check. Safety first, always!

 

Go and No go are for chambering a barrel , not checking military rifles . All military rifles are made with extra headspace . Unless a rifle has a broken part causing it , extra headspace is NOT a safety problem . I know headspace is the bogeyman to people who do not understand it . Read the above posts from people who do , and about people that do not should not be posting about things they do not know about .

 

From Mason reamers that made most of my military spec FIELD gauges; Interesting information I did not know about.
I never owned an Argentine mauser. I always thought it was an odd beast with different ammo. Just the French ammo .32 longue and the Lebel round are odd enough for me. I'd trade The argentine for a K98k

HELPFUL INFORMATION
7.65 X 53 (ARGENTINE) HEADSPACE GAUGES

Download & Print

We’re occasionally asked to supply headspace gauges for checking 7.65×53 (Argentine) rifles. In these instances, we decline the request to make the gauges and this leaves our customers wondering why—this is written to explain our rationale for doing so.
There is a significant difference between the modern (CIP) headspace dimension for 7.65×53 and the headspace dimension of military rifles manufactured early in the last century.
If you use a minimum headspace gauge made to current CIP specs to check an all-original rifle in good shape, you’ll find the gauge indicates the chamber is short by approximately .020”. We’ve checked many all-original rifles, from different production years and have found a similar headspace difference in all of them. Obviously, something has changed.
If we had access to original, factory specifications for the dimensions to which these rifles were made, we’d be able to make gauges with confidence they were correct. Absent this information, we choose not to make them, because their use could cause original rifles to be altered, unnecessarily, to the new, longer spec.
How does Norma—who makes ammunition for the 7.65×53—cope with the headspace difference between old and new chambers? They form a large radius at the neck/shoulder junction of the cartridge.
In the old, shorter military rifles, this radius will crush sufficiently to allow the bolt to close and will hold the round securely when in battery. In rifles headspaced to the new, longer spec, the neck/ shoulder junction of the chamber contacts the cartridge a little further forward, but will hold the round securely enough for it to fire safely—essentially fireforming to the longer chamber.
We regret this doesn’t answer the question of how to check headspace in older rifles. Fortunately, 7.65×53 is the only fairly common caliber we know of which has this problem. If you have any information, or original dimensions, that could help resolve this issue, we’d be very grateful if you’d share it with us.

source: 7.65 x 53 (Argentine) Headspace Gauges

 

I used the Hornady 9th edition where they shot out of an 1891 Argentine Mauser like mine.

They list
39.9 grains. 2300 fps
42.2 grains 2400 fps
44.5 grains. 2500 fps
46.9 grains. 2600 fps marked in red.
Federal 210 primer.

I also had printed the Hodgdon web 41.5 grains and 45.0 grains but did not look at it when I loaded these rounds. I see also BL-C(2) which I also have some of. Next batch I will load a little hotter and maybe some BL-C(2).

Next range trip I loaded more 39.9 and 42.2. The 39.9 grouped very well. Five shots inside a quarter at 50 yards. With factory ammo I am lucky to group under 3 inches. Only one sample and I am not that good of a shot. Will see how it goes tomorrow.

I am no expert on primer analysis but they look ok to me. I had already recalled all the factory cases. Next time I will compare factory to mine.

A while ago I tried to load some 8x57 and the primers were pushing out of the pocket on the lowest charge. I found that increasing the charge stopped that from happening.

I may be wrong but at that time I got the idea that the primer always comes out of the pocket but in the correct operation the case expands and pushes the primer back in.

Thanks for the advice.

 

I measured the outer diameter of an unfired PPU factory case and of my unfired reloaded case. They seem to be about the same.

I measured the OD of a fired factory case and of a fired reloaded case. The PPU fired case seems to have an OD about 0.002 larger than the reloaded case.

I measured the 39.9 grain and the 42.2 grain fired cases and the neck OD on the 42.2 seems to be about 0.002 larger than the OD of the 39.9 grain case, similar to the PPU case.

This might support the hypothesis of the powder charge being too low to fully expand the neck to seal to the barrel causing the fouling to leak back around the neck area.

I used a micrometer for the measurements but I am no whiz kid, so take this with a grain of salt.

I will try to load some hotter charges, maybe 43.0 or 44.0, but it will probably be a couple weeks before I load and shoot them.