[teiko41]

Is there a list serial numbers for MAS 44 rifles that also lists the date of manufacture. I only collect WWII weapons & the MAS 44 could be war time or post war. I have the book Proud Promise coming which may help me, but I don't think it will get here in time. The rifle serial number is F4790, so maybe someone can tell me the date of manufacture.

Don

 

[1886lebel]

According to the book Proud Promise, the production of the first MAS 44 started just after WWII had ended in Europe.
By the serial number this one I believe that it was made in 1946 - 1948 as only 6,200 of these were made ... I could be wrong on the year it was made, I do not think there is a listing of years made, may be time to start one on this forum ... we do have serial number list but not with years.

Patrick

 

[kelt]

Definitely post WWII, earliest pictures of Mas 44 in soldier's hands are dated from 1950/51 in the hands of Commando Marines operating in Indochina.

The date of fabrication of the barrel stamped on the barrel tightening flat will provide an indication.

kelt

 

[Buddy]

 

[Virdea1]

Plans for massive rearmament of French units in WW2 with the MAS44 were put forward more as a bargaining chip with the allies (specifically the Americans) than as a serious plan. Starting in 1943 French units were suppose to be armed on parity with US units, equipping out with US battalion packs one division at a time. The standard battalion pack for infantry had somewhere near 650 Garands in it. The French (and the Brazilians) though found that their battalion packs were showing up with M1917 and M1903 rifles. There were many reasons for this on the American side - but US allies were unhappy that the promised ground parity was not happening.

The deal for American (and British) standardization was part of the huge war plan pushed by the US at the start of their involvement in the war to assure the most efficient use of resources. With every ton of metal, wheat, and wood accounted for in the plan it was too easy for disagreements to lead to breakdowns in the process, so each nation essentially agreed to play nice and in exchange their armies would get as much gelt as they could use.

The shortage of Garands came from the US ramp up of the war in the Pacific, which drew weapons from Europe. As a result battalion packs set up for allies often were short of components like rifles, which were made up from by tapping reserve stocks. The French and Brazilians started getting bolt-action US rifles instead of the promised Garands.

The MAS 44 could have been a wartime rifle. In mid-1944 the conflict over rifles was coming to a head. Some French units were getting rifles on the sly from US forces, but the French army contained 14 colonial divisions which had not even been promised battalion packs, and partisans were clamoring for their own weapons and formation into organized units. So France communicated to the US its intentions to mass produce the MAS 1944, using resources otherwise slated to the master plan. This was not a well documented conversation but the MAS 1944 has a place in WW2 history as the rifle which could have been adopted widely by the French.

As it was supplies of Garands were released to the French on the sly to start and later as MAP transfers, and the idea of mass production of the MAS was at the same time dropped. Since Brazil did something similar with similar results at the same time it is reasonable to assume that the MAS 1944 was part of the conversation about equipping allied units in the last months of the war.

 

[BUCC_Guy]

I have serial #80, so would love to know where the first batch went.

 

[kelt]

Plans for massive rearmament of French units in WW2 with the MAS44 were put forward more as a bargaining chip with the allies (specifically the Americans) than as a serious plan. Starting in 1943 French units were suppose to be armed on parity with US units, equipping out with US battalion packs one division at a time. The standard battalion pack for infantry had somewhere near 650 Garands in it. The French (and the Brazilians) though found that their battalion packs were showing up with M1917 and M1903 rifles. There were many reasons for this on the American side - but US allies were unhappy that the promised ground parity was not happening.

The deal for American (and British) standardization was part of the huge war plan pushed by the US at the start of their involvement in the war to assure the most efficient use of resources. With every ton of metal, wheat, and wood accounted for in the plan it was too easy for disagreements to lead to breakdowns in the process, so each nation essentially agreed to play nice and in exchange their armies would get as much gelt as they could use.

The shortage of Garands came from the US ramp up of the war in the Pacific, which drew weapons from Europe. As a result battalion packs set up for allies often were short of components like rifles, which were made up from by tapping reserve stocks. The French and Brazilians started getting bolt-action US rifles instead of the promised Garands.

The MAS 44 could have been a wartime rifle. In mid-1944 the conflict over rifles was coming to a head. Some French units were getting rifles on the sly from US forces, but the French army contained 14 colonial divisions which had not even been promised battalion packs, and partisans were clamoring for their own weapons and formation into organized units. So France communicated to the US its intentions to mass produce the MAS 1944, using resources otherwise slated to the master plan. This was not a well documented conversation but the MAS 1944 has a place in WW2 history as the rifle which could have been adopted widely by the French.

As it was supplies of Garands were released to the French on the sly to start and later as MAP transfers, and the idea of mass production of the MAS was at the same time dropped. Since Brazil did something similar with similar results at the same time it is reasonable to assume that the MAS 1944 was part of the conversation about equipping allied units in the last months of the war.

Virdea,

Let's be practical here, the MAS arsenal had been almost totally emptied by the leaving Germans, some machine tools were recovered from stranded trains on the North east of France others were recovered in Germany in 1945 some had been destroyed there by Allied bombing of the germanfactories and had to be replaced by German's equipment.

The Mas factory was not in a position to start a mass production of Mas 40 in 1944/45, not only the tooling equipment was missing, but the qualified personnel also, and worst of all the full engineering process and fabrication drawings for building the rifle had been destroyed in 1940, they had to do reverse engineering on the few Mas 40 available after recovering them from the FFI who borrowed them to fight the Germans.

The only production by Mas before the end of WWII was the assembly of Mas 36 from parts made in 1940 and hidden from the Germans during the occupation.

kelt

 

[kelt]

The only difference between a Mas 36 barrel and a Mas 44 barrel is the diameter of the thread, 25x1,5mm for the Mas 36 and 22x1, 5mm for the Mas 44, 49, 49-56, the position of the gas port on the Mas 44 is at the begining of the 2nd barrel step.
Were modified Mas 36 barrels used to build the small batch (6200) of Mas 44 ? that would make sense.

kelt

 

[Buddy]

I have Serial Number F4 ...... Wonder what happened to Serial number 1 .. 2.. 3 .... French Museum ....I hope !

 

[teiko41]

Guess I'll pass on it, as I only collect WWII weapons. I read someplace that they started producing the MAS 44 right after liberation & some were produced before WWII ended. Couldn't find a serial number list so didn't know.

Don

 

[kelt]

A small batch of Mas 38/40 had been fabricated during the winter 39/40 to iron out the large scale production line, some of these rifles were distributed in early June to the 4th Armored division of General De Gaulle, in the archives of the units published as a book after the war, there is a note complaining about the delivery of new automatic rifles without the proper user manual.

The Mas 38/40 rifles re.mainingat the MAS were put in hiding, the related documentation destroyed. In the spring of 1944 the FFI "borrowed" these rifles and the MAS personnel had to circulate leaflets around the various FFI organizations to recover someof the rifles for
reverse engineering.


kelt

 

[Virdea1]

I agree 100%, however that did not stop them from threatening to begin mass production.

In a letter to the war production board, part of a three-way correspondence, a gentleman name M. LeFevere informs Donald Nelson, that France, is contemplating local production of "semi-automatic rifles." The letter stated that France would require 110 additional tonnes of metal sequestered for the project, and expected 50,000 weapons to be completed in "very short order."

At the same time Brazil, quoting this letter, also informed the US that it too was seeking to produce 20,000 weapons to cover a "lack of forthcoming rifles of sufficient capability to arm Brazilian units assigned to overseas units." The plan was for ITA to explore "a wide range of options."

Complaints about the issue of bolt-action rifles to French and Brazilian forces both exist, and the promise of division packs always assumed weapon parity with US units, plus France and Brazil had similar intentions of building local weapons manufacturing.

I suspect both of these threats were hollow (the intention was to get Garands and I think the amount of metal desired was pretty high for the results), but that in each case the country may have been able to push forward production of weapons and had them to the front before end of hostilities. Could France have made 50,000 weapons in time to matter? I am not so sure.