Call the ATF directly. I have found the agents to be helpful.

 

Agreed. Only reasonably certain way to find out what you need to know is from ATFE.

 

I don't think that it loses its C&R status from being destroyed in a fire. I don't think that could even be considered a functional firearm in its present condition, but I can't fault the seller for erring on the side of caution, and you will lose it the seller refuses to ship it to you.

 

I would expect ATFE to confirm the wreck retains its C&R status, and the seller to ship direct to buyer afterwards. If they won't, then they keep the wreck and lose the sale (foolishly).

 

The logic makes no sense. A sporterized C&R is still a C&R…just uglier. Sounds like a CYA move, but only BATFE can answer for sure.

 

Not so, the rifle has to be in its original configuration to retain C&R status.

"ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration."

What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

 

It is C+R. It is a complete firearm over 50 years old, that's all you need.

 

It is not a complete firearm! The stock is missing and as such it is not C&R eligible. "Original configuration" would require the stock to be at least recognizable as such.

 

... I am trying to buy ... only to add the serial number to my database

What is the point in this?

 

There are sporterized milsurps selling as C&R right now at Simpsons LTD. They’ve done it for years, as have all the other big milsurp retailers.

 

Just because they are doing that does not mean they are following the ATF interpterion of the regulations.

What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

 

I too was under the impression that a C&R had to be in original configuration. I seem to recall when I bought a 59/66 SKS that if you removed the box mag and went with a duckbill removable mag it no longer was C&R. If you even removed the bayonet, it nullified the C&R. I haven't had my C&R for a while so maybe that changed or I was misinformed back then. The wind has probably changed directions several times since then. Would asking them to cut the receiver for $10 on the above rifle fix the issue?

 

De-Milling the receiver (properly) makes it guns parts since it is destroyed (for all practical purposes) as a functional firearm.

 

The issue is in 1986 when the importation of surplus military weapons was restored by the FOPA, it included a designation that military firearms in their original configuration made before 1946 as C&R. 50 years would be 1996 then - so this allowed the import of WW2 rifles and pistols as C&R. Now, almost 40 years later, that part is moot - the 50 year rule should apply, as old sporterized rifles are treated today. There may be a few guns imported as C&R that are not yet 50 years old, but I can only think of the 9mm Mak eastern block pistols, and the Indian 2A 7.62 Enfields, but even those made in the 70s are C%R now too by 50 years.

Bureaucracies rarely go back and fix old regs and guidence, believe me, I deal with it everyday.

 

Does 'original military configuration' mean the receiver, or the complete rifle fully assembled? Grey area IMO because the receiver is the only "controlled" item that you need an FFL for. Stocks, barrel bands, sights, etc etc are not controlled items. I think the answer lies in that question. The idea behind the regulation would be that someone isn't turning an Ross rifle into a homemade HUOT automatic and saying it is 'C&R eligible' because it's just an "Ross rifle" at heart. Just my 2 cents.

 

Per the ATF, it mean stock and all other component parts. States this clearly. And also states that a barreled receiver is not C&R. Are some sold this way? Sure thing. That's on them.

 

have the seller cut the receiver in half, mail you the pieces. Problem solved.

 

FAQs are not law or regulation, an agency I work for does the same overly simplistic stuff - look up the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. The intent from the ATF in the old FAQ was to prevent someone from harvesting Mod 98 receivers for example and selling a sporter new made on the action as a C&R. Whatever, don't poke the bear.

 

Many sellers do not accept a C&R or look for ways not to accept them. No way to force the seller….

 

I always took the ATF's definition of a c+r as it had to be a complete firearm 50+ years old. A barreled receiver is not a complete firearm. Pretty clear on their website.
You cannot piece out an eligible c+r and sell the receiver as such.

Imo

 

Actually a barreled receiver is a complete firearm. You can put a round in and fire it. Stocks are optional. Military configuration is not relevant if a firearm is over 50 years old. The point of the original configuration rule is that there are military firearms under 50 years old that are C+R in original configuration. Anything over 50 yrs is C+R regardless of configuration, just by age of the receiver period.
A receiver is considered a firearm or you wouldn't have to do paperwork on them. Parts are parts and you can stick on, weld on whatever you wish or put no stock on at all and rob a bank with your barreled receiver with a pistol brace on it....which is supposedly not a stock.
Guys love to over-complicate things.
The only valid answers from atf are those you put in writing and receive a written response from their legal dept. A phone call is generally worthless.

 

Well, I’m certainly confused…..??
Why, if only the serial number is wanted for a database why would you pay anything at all? Just get a picture and call it a day. Even a Cossack or similar unique unicorn in relic condition can be acknowledged as having once existed. Twenty seven legitimate posts in and still….. Is something missing here…or is it just my OCD meddling with me like usual?🧐

 

Well, I’m certainly confused…..??
Why, if only the serial number is wanted for a database why would you pay anything at all? Just get a picture and call it a day. Even a Cossack or similar unique unicorn in relic condition can be acknowledged as having once existed. Twenty seven legitimate posts in and still….. Is something missing here…or is it just my OCD meddling with me like usual?🧐

I had no idea that this post was going to blow up dang...I just bothered to check and it is a training rifle, if you look at my account it might make more sense. Only a few hundred were imported and knowing the numbers allows me to track and bring together several parts or full rifles. Unfortunately they refused to take a picture and said they couldn't read the stamped numbers on the rear of the bolt. So I tried to buy it just to take 10 seconds to scrub it off and get the data I need.

It's been a useful database so far I have organized the change of parts for 12 mags or bolts to their original rifles and even managed to get 2 rifles back to matching. It's a shame I won't know what this rifle and its parts were.

 

Any of you with a C&R FFL003 See what I see under the NOT RENEWING part of the latest application? About what you need to do with your records when you not renew! I just submitted my 10 renewal (maybe 12th) and maybe I missed this in the past. It may end this argument if you have read that statement.

 

So what do you need to do with records if you don’t renew? Turn them in to ATF like 01 dealers do? Is that new for 03 dealers?

 

You are NOT required to turn them in. Not complaining but shows the real true issue of C&R firearms, they are not an issue. Of course this is for the next three years, who knows after that. I have not check my past applications to see if this is new or I just missed it in the past, today, I scan everything. I graduated high school 50 years ago, so I am an Curio & Relic of sorts.

 

I let my c&r expire about 20 years ago and at that time you didn’t have to turn the book in. What’s different now?

 

On past applications since I was renewing I did not notice that statement in the past. I appreciate knowing it was that way 20 yrs ago. Assuming you don't have your old book and if asked it would be a dead end. The point is that these guns are not a threat and once they hit this system they are moved off the radar in most cases. I am trying to be PC on what I am saying. Appreciate the heads up.