I have pointed this out in this forum, they did not bury the front sight in the notch, that is an old tale myth now.
They knew the different trajectory of the projectiles in flight at rhecranges from 100 to 300 meters and where they would impact upon them at those distances.

Patrick

 

I know Sir, but I have yet been able to find it in print re, the Carcano.

 

This diagram shows the sight picture at the bottom of the rear sight.

 

Again, why would the Italian Army switch from a "level" sight alignment, to a "buried in the V" alignment ?
.... and ....
I know Sir, but I yet been able to find it in print re, the Carcano.

I think the most obvious answer is usually the most simple. This was a screw up. Rather than pay $$$ to correct the mistake, they trained to make do. The 'mistake' was a deliberate but bad design. Not an accidental mistake. Eventually the sights were changed. When I get a Carcano TS with fixed sights, I know if the screw up was ever corrected.

With the sight buried, the carbines still hit high. To high for paper or target shooting with any precision. It may work OK with a 6 o'clock hold on a human torso with a buried sight. If you do not bury the sight, you are hitting 4 foot high at 100 yards with the two carbines I tested. That would be very difficult to train and work with. That is a foot change to correct for every 25 yards out to the first 100! Imagine a moving target shooting at you and trying to estimate a correction!

The solution, modify or replace the front sight HIGHER.

 

I can tell you this past Saturday I used the level sight method, top of front sight level within the top of the V at 300 meters with my Moschetto Modello 1938 with a 6 o'clock hold (at the belt buckle) of a human target, firing 10 rounds and all 10 hit in the target in the center of it. I also use this same hold at 200 meters with it with the same results but it just shoots a little higher in the center of the target. I use the same exact LOS with Moschetto Modello 1891 at 200 and 300 meters with the same results.
These are battle rifles not phu-phu hunting rifles, aim at the belt buckle of a man and you will hit him in combat, who cares where you hit him, hit him to take him out of action, plain and simple. You do not have time to bury the front sight within the V, it takes too long, aim fast and take the shot, you have bullets, artillery coming in at you as you are doing this in combat, fast and quick is what is needed., so was this a mistake, I think not, it was a matter of simplicity, aim at the belt area (waist) of a man and hit him to take him out before he gets you.

Patrick

 

More Proof Gents.
From the Website-

G.B. Verrina catalogo ex ordinanza Italia

B.B.B. di G.B. Verrina armeria genovese specializzata in ex ordinanza e armi da collezione

www.gbverrina.net

Under- IL FUCILE 1891 CALIBRO 6, 5x52, section above the ballistic table (translated)-"For academic shooting it was recommended to see the touch sight of the throat of the V of the rear sight, while for war shooting, to see the whole front sight leveled on the upper plane of the rear sight, but to aim below at the base of the target.";
quoted from the book IL TIRO A SEGNO by G. RASTELLI.
Also of interest, farther down clicking on the leftside black 🎯 symbols, the website's author shows the results of ballistic tests using various Carcanos !

 

This is the original trajectory chart from "Regio manuale d' uso delle armi dell' Esercito Italiano durante la seconda guerra mondiale" di Luca Del Soldato.

so by the chart and website using the 300 meter sight ...
at 100 meters (109 Y) it will be +.27 m (10.63") high; 150 meters (164 Y) it will be + .31 m (12.20") high; 200 meters (218 Y) +.28 m (11.02") high; 250 meters (273 Y) +.19 m (7.5") high and of course at 300 meters (328 Y) it will be 0.

 

Very interesting and new to me. IAC, may i put this info with the new book please? Best Regards, Russ

 

You may Sir, as far as I may alllow.

 

Interesting.

 

Btw Sir, your diagram above of the Italian targets.
What book/manual is that from ?
The original is Italian.
Thanka, IAC.

 

It's a manual we put within our book 8 years ago. I'll look for the book in my morass of junk. Russ

 

Grazie !

 

Have you even ever fired any original loads or just your own reloads ? I have fired original loads, my own reloads with .264 and .267 diameter bullets and original bullets / powder in new PPU cartridge cases out to distances ranging from 200 to 500 meters, not 50 or 100 yards. Ask Rapidrob about my results, he personally has seen my results with my Moschetto Modello 1891 and 1938's and he can verify them for you, he even found my loads simulate the original loads, he started to use them and his different models started to shoot much better than they had in the past.

Patrick

 

Only PPU and my own loads in the two guns. I do not doubt your results. Very few others are sharing results so it is hard to get a sense of how or why things might vary with time of manufacture vs model of firearm vs random quality of build. My club only goes out to 200 yards. I shoot my garands at 200 along with modern rifles. No Carcano. I dont want to. I did surprise myself last time out with my Lee Enfield at 200, with multiple hits on the club gong at 200.

I have to wonder, all these 100's of PW Arms sales and where are the shooters? I still see PPU ammo on the shelves. Not at the Cabelas,. but; small shops still have it. What are people doing cleaning them up and stacking them in the closet? A bayonet bolted to a Cavalry gun, could be a whole new ball game. Another variable.

I am NOT complaining. I got one TS right where I want it. It does seem like there are discrepancies with common wisdom on how TS are sighted or how 91/24 were manufactured. If I have the ear of a book writer, this maybe food for thought.

Another idea, the quoted source 10" high at 100 meter with the 300 meter rear leaf setting. Try that some time. A WWII rifle and a WWI carbine perhaps.