I have a friend who is being a bit stubborn about the large difference in pressure between the 9x23 Win and the 9mm Largo. Anyone have any first hand stories, preferabbly with photos, to help convince him? He bought a Super B from a fellow who had shot about 20 round of 9x23 Win out of a box through it and included the remaining 30. I think it would be very foolish for him to shoot up the remaining 30 rounds. Thanks, Steve.
srinde
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9x23 vs 9mm largo horror stories ?
45 Super does NOT require a ramped barrel, so right there you are wrong. The case holds the pressure in over the unsupported portion of the barrel. See Below from Hindeman's website. Also reread my last post where the guys are using normal 1911's to run 44 Magnum pressures. No ramped barrels there, either. Just 308 cases trimmed to 45 ACP length.
How do you explain the people running around with 1911's at pressures approaching 60,000 or so PSI with unramped barrels? They should be blowing up left and right if your assertion is correct. The fact that they are not disproves your statement. 60,000 PSI is about 3 times what the 1911 is rated for.
From Ace Hindeman's website:
To do this Grennells went straight to the problem, pinpointing the weakest part of the M1911 system - the cartridge case itself! The standard 45 ACP leaves a significant portion of the case hanging unsupported over the angled feed ramp of the barrel, thereby limiting pressures and velocities to low levels. The unsupported section is forward of the case head and the brass there is thin, this poses no particular problem since the standard 45 ACP is loaded to levels not much greater than black powder loads, and standard brass is amply strong to handle this! However this scenario does present a serious barrier to increased ballistic performance! (There are some who would argue: that there is no need for increased ballistic performance for the 45 ACP, for those who are of that mindset we leave them there!)
To address the case weakness of the standard .45 ACP Grennell used a modified .451 Detonics magnum case. This case was longer than the 45 ACP, with thicker walls and a heavier web area to withstand higher pressures. These cases trimmed to proper 45 ACP length and then inside neck reamed to accept 45 ACP bullets, provided the basis for the "45Super"®!
EDIT: And from Dane Burns regarding the 9x23 Winchester. Note he is building them on a 1911 pistol:
9x23 is a "different" caliber. In a 1911 you are running rifle chamber pressures in a handgun with the Winchester factory loads. Only Winchester brass is made to take it. Second choice in brass is 9mm Super Comp brass from Starline. BEWARE, the brass is not equal! Do not treat them as such. The 9x23 Winchester brass was made to run at 50K CUP and from a correctly fitted, unramped barrel. If you are going to run other than Winchester brass I would HIGHLY suggest building your gun on a ramped barrel. That said I have build dozens with an unramped barrel with zero problems. Barrel throating and the correct frame ramps are critical to a safe 9x23. Winchester brass is an extra margin of safety in either design with maximum loads. (which factory ammo is)
and
7) Unramped barrels shooting 170 PF loads, or more, are not an issue with Vectan powder and Winchester brass. The case was designed to do just that and the guns are more reliable IMO. If in doubt or you want to use other brass safely, have the gun built with a ramped barrel.
How do you explain the people running around with 1911's at pressures approaching 60,000 or so PSI with unramped barrels? They should be blowing up left and right if your assertion is correct. The fact that they are not disproves your statement. 60,000 PSI is about 3 times what the 1911 is rated for.
From Ace Hindeman's website:
To do this Grennells went straight to the problem, pinpointing the weakest part of the M1911 system - the cartridge case itself! The standard 45 ACP leaves a significant portion of the case hanging unsupported over the angled feed ramp of the barrel, thereby limiting pressures and velocities to low levels. The unsupported section is forward of the case head and the brass there is thin, this poses no particular problem since the standard 45 ACP is loaded to levels not much greater than black powder loads, and standard brass is amply strong to handle this! However this scenario does present a serious barrier to increased ballistic performance! (There are some who would argue: that there is no need for increased ballistic performance for the 45 ACP, for those who are of that mindset we leave them there!)
To address the case weakness of the standard .45 ACP Grennell used a modified .451 Detonics magnum case. This case was longer than the 45 ACP, with thicker walls and a heavier web area to withstand higher pressures. These cases trimmed to proper 45 ACP length and then inside neck reamed to accept 45 ACP bullets, provided the basis for the "45Super"®!
EDIT: And from Dane Burns regarding the 9x23 Winchester. Note he is building them on a 1911 pistol:
9x23 is a "different" caliber. In a 1911 you are running rifle chamber pressures in a handgun with the Winchester factory loads. Only Winchester brass is made to take it. Second choice in brass is 9mm Super Comp brass from Starline. BEWARE, the brass is not equal! Do not treat them as such. The 9x23 Winchester brass was made to run at 50K CUP and from a correctly fitted, unramped barrel. If you are going to run other than Winchester brass I would HIGHLY suggest building your gun on a ramped barrel. That said I have build dozens with an unramped barrel with zero problems. Barrel throating and the correct frame ramps are critical to a safe 9x23. Winchester brass is an extra margin of safety in either design with maximum loads. (which factory ammo is)
and
7) Unramped barrels shooting 170 PF loads, or more, are not an issue with Vectan powder and Winchester brass. The case was designed to do just that and the guns are more reliable IMO. If in doubt or you want to use other brass safely, have the gun built with a ramped barrel.
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