Thanks very much for the effort you put in to giving us very valuable information on defense ammo we may consider carrying in our 9x18s. I like the Critical Defense, seems to do what it's supposed to do without over-penetrating or fragmenting. Great job:thumbsup:.

 

Thanks, I agree. It did very well.

 

Well done Turftech!

For years people have complained that Hornady underpowers their 9x18. On my chronograph neither Hornady round breaks 1,000 fps but Soviet specs call for some 1,040 fps and several manufacturers beat that speed.

But I've always wondered - don't you think Hornady tested velocity vs penetration? I've wondered - if you overdrive the round does it open too soon and slow down, as apparently happened in your Buffalo Bore test?

The PPU didn't expand - if you had run Sellier & Bellot FMJ I'd suspect you'd get similar penetration.

I've always wanted to do these tests and your work is much appreciated.

 

The core didn't expand at all, the jacket did, but did so irregularly. Still, it left a much more impressive wound cavity than a FMJ round. We have shot the gelatin with a 95 gr Brown Bear FMJ, it passes through all 25.25" of ballistics gelatin, though it is going slow enough by the end that you can see the bullet exit at 240 frames/second.

We need one more block to see how deep it actually will go.

One advantage to the PPU that I thought of later, is that you really could practice with your carry round. The Hornady rounds were both dynamite, but I know some Maks don't feed hollow points well, and are picky with ammo, and some ammos will have a different point of impact. You could shoot the PPU stuff regularly at $19.99 for 50 rounds (that's just the Cabelas in-store price). I am seriously thinking about switching to it. Still, I am totally impressed with the Hornady FTX. A 2" group at 13 yards is about as good as I could shoot anything.

 

So much for the Buffalo bore hype. Started leaving trails of jacket at lead starting at 2 inches! That means it fragmented on impact (on a soft target). I don't need that at $1.50 a shot.

Does anyone remember what bullet they use?

 

Does anyone remember what bullet they use?

Hornady XTP JHP

 

Must be over driven on the verge of unstable. I have had really nice results with Freedom Arms .38 special and .380 using the XTP when I tried them in ballistic media in the past.

 

Nice, I picked up some of the PPU JHP recently. I normally use Hornady Custom FTX for carry.

 

One more variable in the 9x18 defense rounds: the Buffalo Bore and Underwood 115-gr Hard Cast Flat Nose. I'd love to see them compared with the FMJ and HP you've done. On the basis of an internal argument alone, I've always considered these to be potentially the best defensive round to carry.

 

One advantage to the PPU that I thought of later, is that you really could practice with your carry round

Exactly what I did earlier today. The PPUs fed, shot, and ejected fine (and mail order will knock another $4 off of Cabela's price).

Thanks for doing this.

 

Yes, thank you for your efforts ... I know gelatin blocks are expensive , and messy to make if you go that route . But The PPU results seem to be an outlier in the grand scheme of things ... did you happen to shoot more than one shot? I am not a fan of PPU, I like the Hornady XTP's so this is not an attempt to defend the PPU but consider this

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

What is important here in this chart is the average penetration depth verses the success rate .. The average penetration was based on shots against bare gel, clothing protected gel, and auto body sheet metal gel, ect ( eight categories/ combinations described in the article)... the success column was the percentage that penetrated more than 12 inches ..

You can look at some of the 45 acp that had an average over 13 inches and yet only half penetrated over 12 inch and even the 380 penetrating less than 7 inches on average had 20 percent penetrate over 12 .. that screams VARIABILITY .. YES YES YES odds are your tests show average penetration , life is a bell curve after all.... and I know you probably spent more than you should have, and I am not knocking the test, they are much appreciated , In fact I respect the heck out of you for actually doing the work ... please don't misunderstand... I'm just saying I wouldn't expect very many PPU to penetrate like that if more shots could have been fired. To do the FBI test they used 24 tons of Gel.

So if you have PPU .. don't throw them away... Just buy my favorite XTP next time and truth be told, I prefer XTP's, mostly because I can buy them for reloading and at a price not unsimilar to FMJ. So I am thinking value with them more than better anything, and I still prefer FMJ for barriers, not because I have some super faith in some exceptional lethality above and beyond any other bullet design we are talking a ~1000 fps < 100 grain bullet here .. physics allows only so much.

Sorry, had to interrupt my post ... anyway to wrap this up .. another point made is that only 20% of police fried shots actually hit the target.. the article asks , in light of that fact.. how much concern should we give the chance of an over penetration? You have to know and clear your background.. or be willing to accept the consequences of a miss, much less an over penetration.

Another good article that can inform this discussion http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

 

Yes, thank you for your efforts ... I know gelatin blocks are expensive , and messy to make if you go that route . But The PPU results seem to be an outlier in the grand scheme of things ... did you happen to shoot more than one shot? I am not a fan of PPU, I like the Hornady XTP's so this is not an attempt to defend the PPU but consider this

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

What is important here in this chart is the average penetration depth verses the success rate .. The average penetration was based on shots against bare gel, clothing protected gel, and auto body sheet metal gel, ect ( eight categories/ combinations described in the article)... the success column was the percentage that penetrated more than 12 inches ..

You can look at some of the 45 acp that had an average over 13 inches and yet only half penetrated over 12 inch and even the 380 penetrating less than 7 inches on average had 20 percent penetrate over 12 .. that screams VARIABILITY .. YES YES YES odds are your tests show average penetration , life is a bell curve after all.... and I know you probably spent more than you should have, and I am not knocking the test, they are much appreciated , In fact I respect the heck out of you for actually doing the work ... please don't misunderstand... I'm just saying I wouldn't expect very many PPU to penetrate like that if more shots could have been fired. To do the FBI test they used 24 tons of Gel.

So if you have PPU .. don't throw them away... Just buy my favorite XTP next time and truth be told, I prefer XTP's, mostly because I can buy them for reloading and at a price not unsimilar to FMJ. So I am thinking value with them more than better anything, and I still prefer FMJ for barriers, not because I have some super faith in some exceptional lethality above and beyond any other bullet design we are talking a ~1000 fps < 100 grain bullet here .. physics allows only so much.

Sorry, had to interrupt my post ... anyway to wrap this up .. another point made is that only 20% of police fried shots actually hit the target.. the article asks , in light of that fact.. how much concern should we give the chance of an over penetration? You have to know and clear your background.. or be willing to accept the consequences of a miss, much less an over penetration.

Another good article that can inform this discussion http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

I would actually like to fire at least 4-5 more of the PPU rounds into gelatin, and get a better avg. I have fired a few of the FTX rounds into gelatin, and it is very consistent. 9.625" when fired through a heavy coat, 10 - 11" when fired through a t-shirt, sweat-shirt, or bare gelatin. It was the most accurate to, with an avg of only 2" vertical deviation in 5 shot groups at 13 yards. The XTP was right behind the FTX, also very consistent.

Over penetration is one reason why I am looking more and more at the 9x18. The 124 grain XTP in 9-Luger will blast through a solid block of gelatin. Which could be good or bad, depending on the situation.

 

but, maybe at last, we have DOCUMENTATION, that almost anything is better than an fmj.

 

Thank you turftech1 for all the good work done on the video. Have you any experience with the Silver Bear JHP? I just bought 20 boxes not too long ago and it seems to group very well. Also was wondering what distance you were shooting at, forgive me if I missed the distance.

 

gwurly,
So sorry, I missed your question. Just scanning down comments....

Anyway, I have not tested the Silver Bear JHP, but would love to. Both of my 9x18 pistols love Brown Bear, so I imagine it would probably group well too.

The accuracy part of the test was at 12 yards (37'), the gelatin test was at just 5 - 6'.

Hope that helps.

 

Maybe this test shows that it's best to stagger the magazines with HPs and FMJ, the best of both worlds:thumbsup:.

 

I've done that LOL. I don't anymore, but before I tested the Hornady FTX, I loaded one FTX, one Brown Bear FMJ, one FTX, one BB FMJ. I have very good confidence in the FTX. If it passes through 10-11" of gelatin, it should get deep enough into body-mass to cause damage. I wouldn't carry it in Grizzly country, but for a CC round, it gets the nod.

 

Buffalo Bore doesn't appear to recommend the use of hollowpoints in anything less than 124gr 9x19mm.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=60

I tend to agree, and prefer a semi-jacketed (flat) soft point bullet for smaller calibers.

 

Muggers in Memphis often Very quietly run up from your 6 o'clock (running shoes are not loud), because they know that many guys 'carry'. Or they sprint into your garage with no warning-this happened last May to the guy who bought our Memphis home.

My problem isn't which round to carry in my Russian IZH-70 Mak (.380), it's how to Spot somebody racing over, practically as silent as a cat from a blindspot.
Otherwise this entire thread is merely an academic debate.

 

Absolutely true. Too many people think that if they pop a gun in their pocket or carry one in a holster, that they automatically become invincible. I read books on self defense and the need to always be in condition yellow, always aware of your surroundings. You have to walk with your head on swivel, looking every which way.
Very good point:thumbsup:.

 

You're right, I'd rather be ultra aware with a .25 auto as opposed to unaware with a 9x18.

 

It is academic but i don't see it as a debate. Turf tech has produced actual data points on over-driven XTP and that is great info.

Maybe a decade ago I got involved in a discussion on another forum where the posters were noting the relatively slow speed of Hornady cartridges and the reloaders were saying they were going to make cartridges that beat 1,200 fps with XTP bullets. I commented then that you'd have to test to see if you would over-drive the bullet. I've wanted these tests for a long time (but apparently not bad enough to do them myself).

 

That expanding bullets are designed and optimized for certain typical velocity ranges is a fact.. use expanding hunting bullets designed for a 30-30 in a 30-06 and you just get fragments... reverse that and you do not get expansion worth mentioning. Unfortunately manufacturers rarely publish that data.

 

for those that question hornady and their xtp bullets...
CALL THEM.
some of their bullets start opening as low as 800 fps.
look at the catalog...seperate bullets for 357 and 38...
i wonder why.

 

for those that question hornady and their xtp bullets...
CALL THEM.
some of their bullets start opening as low as 800 fps.
look a tthe catalog...seperate bullets for 357 and 38...
i wonder why.

Now that's the spirit. Have the company that is marketing the round tell us how it performs. Would independent testing or any other verification be necessary?

 

LOL Hmmm .. it's just that we make so many assumptions and think there are some hard fast realties that some gun or bullet has to measure up to , to be effective. I'll be honest.. if I have good reason and a good shot. I'll take it.. but there are going to be a lot of possible scenarios where my only thought is to unasstheao ( I'm getting a spell check on that but I am pretty sure I spelled it right) .. suppressive fire and retreat .. I'm not going to wait around for a clear shot ..I'll make chips fly off some hard concrete near where I think the Bad guy is as I make a noisy exit. On the other hand shot placement.. I wouldn't get in a hand to hand without knowing where the solar plexus is or that advantages of crushing the larynx or a knife fight and not know where the arteries are or where to cut on the back of the hand to disable the fingers. Caliber not withstanding.. bullet hurt and can kill .. 100 years ago Gangsters ruled the streets with 32 cal pop guns and cops fought back with 38 caliber decidedly unspecials. 38 Special was designed so cops could penetrate windshields and car body metal.. and people still managed to get killed .. now they are just things to shoot thru to get to the jello .. gives a whole new meaning to jello shots Yu should read the Coroners article about how bullets kill people I posted , I know it is even longer than the FBI article

It's not the gun, its the girl behind the gun that is dangerous. ( well, okay, or guy ) The problem with the over driven XTP's is enough shooters don't know or understand the fine points of ballistics that they are suckers for marketing schemes to make them pay more for the fantasy and hype of some bullets and calibers than they pay for the lead and powder. Super duper gluten free organic low fat ammo doesn't make up for skill and practice . and God Help me but truth be told.. I do check when I go down the ammo aisle to see if anybody has slapped a Gluten Free label on a box of ammo yet.

Anyway real world I'm going to keep shooting until the threat stops ... so I would rather have a caliber that I can shoot quickly with accurate follow up shots then hope and arm for a one shot stop, or even have the thought of a one shot stop in my head.. if it is all about wound channels and organs and rapid blood loss then my five 9mm Maks beats your single 357 or 45 double tap in Spades. And if I am carrying my 45 well my four 185 grain golden saber's beat your 50 Cal Bolt action sniper cannon. I don't know how much or if you guys hunt.. or just do farm work ... but as a kid I botched a single shot to the head mercy killing on a cow that had run herself up on a T-bar fence post and impaled herself. 38 special I emptied the gun with my eyes closed and puked my guts out for it seemed like hours got 3 more hits out of 5 at just a few feet, it killed her , but not fast, and I cried for days, I was stupid, shot the forehead instead of under the jaw into the brain or from the side thru the ear. Not knowing where to shoot for a clean kill , but having to shoot, not even knowing you don't know where to put a clean kill shot. And not even realizing it until you actually have to do it. and then have to do it over. It sucks .. Nothing ever dies fast enough when you are trying to kill it .. the more you know about where to put the first shot, on game or an ailing pet or a bad guy the better it is .. but never hesitate to shoot multiple shots just incase, if you set out to kill in the first place, then kill it as quickly as possible, take the follow up shot just incase. I think we have all heard the hunting stories where the deer starts kicking after being dragged half way to the truck. there is even the one where the deer shoots the hunter http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28005680/...ns/us_news-weird_news/t/deer-gets-revenge-after-hunter-shoots-him/#.VtVAPo-cFZU http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/ne...ogs/newshound/2014/02/louisiana-hunter-gored-wounded-buck-graphic-image-warning

 

Hmmmph ! just on a wild goose chase .. I thought to myself.. Well, self, have you actually looked up the specs for the Hornady 9mm Makarov XTP bullet? and self said no.. didn't think I would find what I wanted .. so I said well.. try ...

http://www.hornady.com/store/9-x-18-Makarov-95-gr-HP-XTP/ Muzzle Velocity Range (fps) 750-1000


bet it works best if you keep velocity between the goal posts...

 

Hmmmph ! just on a wild goose chase .. I thought to myself.. Well, self, have you actually looked up the specs for the Hornady 9mm Makarov XTP bullet? and self said no.. didn't think I would find what I wanted .. so I said well.. try ...

http://www.hornady.com/store/9-x-18-Makarov-95-gr-HP-XTP/ Muzzle Velocity Range (fps) 750-1000


bet it works best if you keep velocity between the goal posts...

Thank self for me:thumbsup:.

 

Yeah ... but knowing the guys that designed the bullet .. knew the velocity that the bullet would come out of the vast majority of barrels lengths available in the Caliber and be within pressure limits for the weapons and gave it a low enough bottom velocity for a reasonable range, and then designed it to do what they wanted it to do within those parameters given the resistance of a likely target and then avoided all the temptations of marketing to try and push it and made a round that optimized the bullet's terminal ballistics performance instead of trying to make it the fastest or hardest kicking external ballistics which is what folks sometimes put on the outside of the box to sell bullets ... just gives me a warm fuzzy, and then knowing they realize the weak spot in the JHP design and came out with an improvement to fix that .. can't wait for the FTX to come on the market for reloaders.. I looked, couldn't find any.. but I know Hornady sometimes keeps new stuff in house for a while before reloaders can get it as a component.

I really like their stuff

Just something about a practical designed weapon, with purposely designed ammo .. absent hoopla and flash .. ain't personal, just business attitude that makes me really want to do my part to bring it all together. Pistols are such a bundle of compromises to start with, that the limits chosen for an application are embraced and accepted then optimized within that platform's limits is kind of cool .. almost art, no .. is art. It even makes me feel better about hardball 9 x18 in an abstract way. But I still wonder , is hardball , hardball, simply because of the military application and the law of war, or is there an actual performance based decision in there somewhere and where did the performance side of hardball fit in the overall compromises of the weapon design.

 

Hi all,
A member here has generously offered to send me a few of the 115 gr rounds, and a few other rounds. I will let y'all know as soon as I have the testing done, and post the results.

I was talking about this with a co-worker just today. It really makes me want to re-try the Buffalo Bore and see if it breaks apart consistently.

Too many cool things to test, and not enough time. LOL

 

You mean the hard cast rounds? That would be great.

 

Yes sir. I will be honest. I am really excited to try them, but fear they will blast through all 25+" of ballistics gelatin. I really hope I am wrong, and they expand.

 

define "hard cast"

alloy can make bullets "hard", but brittle.

std alloys can be hardened buy heat treat or water drop.

will they provide you a hardness number and alloy ??

 

Not to side track the thread, but, for anyone who reloads for the mak, coup de tat has some hornady XTP jacketed hollow points up for sale in the WTS section.

 

Many ammo manufacturers test their ammo through longer barrels than a Makarov. So I chrono to see what it reads through my Mak. I averaged 971 fps, a little less than Hornady's advertised 1,000 fps.

Their website shows 9.75-inches penetration in ballistic gel through "heavy clothing":

http://www.hornady.com/store/9-x-18mm-Makarov-95-gr-Critical-Defense/

... and Hornady lists it as over $1 a round. Ouch

 

We should test the XTP through a coat like we did the FTX.