[BEN74]

+Pictures off bayo.
Got My first GEW.98 today, its a 1918 V. CHR SCHILLING SUHL made gun. I paid 360$ for it. Is this a fair price ? , I believe it was ok. (had to have it). I have some GEW98`s who is converted to K98 , but always wanted a original (long Mauser) GEW.98.
The rifle has the weimar republic 1920 property mark to.
What strange blond wood is this? Did not find the letter stamp for other wood i read about here on the forum.
I got a x saw back butcher bayo for it to, its a Simpson å co suhl. At least the same city.
How rear is the original sling? Is there usually any stamps on the sling?, could not find any.
The safty and the cleaning rod is not the same number as the rest.(bummer).
Any thoughts about the rifle?

 

[Stan61]

Very nice, and I think a great buy for $360! It is a post WW1 upgraded Gew.98 (aka Gew.98M). The sling looks like a period original Gew 98 type to me with the QD rear swivel. Some of the Beech stocks have a "yellowish" shade, but no "B" stamp on the stock I can see and it looks like a walnut grain to me. I would guess the yellow finish from some shellac or varnish coating from long ago. Many of the post WW2 Norwegian refinished K98k stocks have a similar tone. Some more detailed photos of any other markings on receiver, barrel and stock might be helpful. Others here can tell you more about your rifle.

 

[BEN74]

Thanx Stan61. I believe you are right ,when I look closer it looks like the grain pattern of the stock is walnut. The color fooled me. I am getting more and more satisfied as time goes by with the purchase of the rifle, it's really growing on me. Reminds me of the Norwegian "Lang Krag" (long Krag) M94 I am used to handle. Same lenght barrel, balance and general feel. Just now I noticed that the stock disk is marked 1.21. Could it mean that the rifle was upgraded to GEW.98M standard in Jan. 1921?

 

[Stan61]

I would think the number on the stock takedown disc is most likely a unit number. That was often found at that location. The markings and code on the barrel might indicate a year if it was replaced at the time of the upgrade. As I recall, these upgrades were started around early to mid 1920's. It was primarily just a change in the style of rear sight from the earlier Gew.98's. Some of the earlier ones retained the narrow Gew.98 lower band, then later, a wider/stronger lower band was used like the one on yours.

 

[runner]

Nice rifle regardless of price, and an excellent buy at $360. The original sling and hardware are quite difficult to find in decent condition. The bolt is from another rifle and has had the original sn ground off and replaced with this rifles number, that would explain the non matching safety. Do other bolt components match? (bolt sleeved, cocking piece and firing pin)
Check the buttplate for any other markings that might indicate depot rework.

 

[BEN74]

Hi Runner. You are right when it comes to the bolt, it has a "B" with crown over on the other side from the serial number and no prefix. The otherbolt components do not match. There are waa37 , waa668 and difrent serial numbers on all the other parts. Maybeit is post 1935 k98 parts?
There is only the serial number on the buttplate, no prefix. When i took it off there was only a small "W" on the innside, no wrighting on the stock. I'm used to the serial number is written with pencil there ,common on many others rifles. Is there any other markings that might indicate depot rework?

 

[BEN74]

I have another mauser from 1918, found some pictures on my pc. It is an erfurt produced sporter from right after the war, marked GWF.E. They was made so the workers on the factory still had jobs.This one have serieal number 20 so its a chance its from the first week after the war. Do this rifle have an interest for military collectors or just for those that colect sporters? I feel it fits inn to both collecting areas. Sorry for the bad photos, but i dont bother to dig it out of the safe for new pictures now. View attachment 3324215 View attachment 3324217 View attachment 3324219 View attachment 3324221

 

[BEN74]

Hi stan61. My last post to you disappeared, tried to find it again ,but did not. There is coming up "auto seved" all the time, but cant find it / restor it.
Maybe it's Company 1 and unit 21 on the stock disk? I want to check the rifle when I disassemble it for cleaning, wondering if I should remove the shellac or varnish coating on it and put some proper stock oil and wax on it? what do you think?

I lean against not doing any surface treatment now, i tried to remove the first barrel band and the old hardened oil did come loose and fell off some, so I think I'll put some wax on it and leve it alone. Do you have any thoughts about it?

 

[Stan61]

Hi stan61. My last post to you disappeared, tried to find it again ,but did not. There is coming up "auto seved" all the time, but cant find it / restor it.
Maybe it's Company 1 and unit 21 on the stock disk? I want to check the rifle when I disassemble it for cleaning, wondering if I should remove the shellac or varnish coating on it and put some proper stock oil and wax on it? what do you think?

I lean against not doing any surface treatment now, i tried to remove the first barrel band and the old hardened oil did come loose and fell off some, so I think I'll put some wax on it and leve it alone. Do you have any thoughts about it?

I generally don't advise people to do any restorations on the wood or metal, especially without seeing something first hand. Photos can sometimes give false assumptions. I have only ever removed shellac with denatured alcohol on a stock that I was certain was applied by a post service user. If you do any stripping of the wood, extra care needs to be taken to not harm any of the markings on the stock, they are obviously important to the history of the rifle.

On the 1.21 marking, photos might be needed. The 1 might be an I? The marking might also be a post WW1 police or militia unit as well. Others here are more versed than myself in those unit markings.

 

[BEN74]

Picture of the stock disk

Here is a picture of the stock disk.
Put some pictures of the bayo in the first post.

 

[SimsonSuhl]

I would ask to see the right receiver acceptance if you have a picture of it. Also the stock acceptance stamps at the wrist and side (straight shot, not glancing).

I ask these things to determine the actual maker of this rifle, while it would seem to be VCS as marked, the acceptance (and fireproof style and placement) shown suggests another maker. Matter of fact if my thoughts are supported by facts in pictures, this rifle will be a postwar Oberspree variation linked to the S28 program and more desirable "generally" (though most wouldn't know the difference and fewer care). To a specialized collector, someone that understands rifle production, this rifle could be more valuable.

If you get the barrel out of the stock it would also support a conclusion, but just from what you show, I am next to 100% this is actually an Oberspree assembled rifle.

 

[BEN74]

Hi SimsonSuhl. What does Oberspree mean? Google translator failed to translate it.
Sounds exciting if it's it's a post war rifle. Here are some pictures,
are they okay? Or do you need pictures of something else?

 

[SimsonSuhl]

Waffenwerke Oberspree, a factory located in a Berlin suburb (incorporated into Greater Berlin in 1920 or so, today I believe the Germans call the city Niederschöneweide), the company was a firm created by the war, initially a firm made up of looted machines from FN (Belgian arms maker) combined with DWM provided technical assistance (they also technically owned FN) at a factory site owned by an German industrialist. (the German authorities provided nothing but the muscle/looting and financial backing)

Anyway, your rifle was not made in WWI, rather sometime after WWI, some debate about when these were first made, possibly during 1918-1919/20, before Versailles (June 1919) and the Inter-allied Military Control Commission put teeth to the restriction of German arms making (technically illegal June 1919, though no firm followed the laws until they needed IAMCC certificates to continue operating... so June 1919 until 1923 when Simson Suhl was chosen to be the only authorized manufacturer, technically no one made rifles... the Germans had ordnance depots at Spandau, Cassel/Kassel and Königsberg, also illegal ordnance shops at specialized sites like Zeithain, but generally limited rifle/ordnance work 1920-1927, it was all secret without actually being a secret, the French had excellent spies, but it was small enough of an operation to only be an issue when Germany had the temerity to exert its rights under Versailles, like building authorized ships or complaining about the Ruhr occupation, etc...); due to some facts it is believed that the full S28 (Kar.98b program conducted outside of Simson Suhl) program was done in the late 1920's. Personally, I think the rifles like yours, a S28 variant (has early features of the S28 program, fireproofing, the little "W" stamp on top receiver, the acceptance on the rearsight sleeve base - near the barrel serial, the Oberspree acceptance pattern on stock and right receiver, the barrel codes, etc...) are related to Oberspree's postwar production. Production that continued after the war, into 1919 and possibly as late as 1920 (though in Berlin this probably problematic, IAMCC HQ and Berlin being the most insane city in Central Europe, then and today...).

Anyway, these rifles differ from the actual S28 program in being in G98 configuration, whereas the S28 rifles are all Kar.98b rifles. We can only go surviving examples, but these early variants all carry the traits of Oberspree production 1918-1919 (acceptance, fireproofs - your rifles fireproofs, acceptance on stock and receiver are Oberspree, not Suhl production, - it has the appearance of a Oberspree/1918 or Oberspree/1919, not a VCS/1918).

None of this is especially important to a casual collector or some superficial accumulator, but a specialized collector will value this rifle more than what it appears to be. The rifle was not made during the war, but rather in 1919 in all probability. They are directly connected to the S28 Kar.98b program and Mike and Bruce covered this variation in their book (Volume I), you can refer to the book for a general outline of the program. Offhand I do not recall to what degree they took my research into account regarding these early variations relationship to the Kar.98b S28, but the connection is strong and directly related (zero ambiguity).

If you ever do take the metal outside of the stock, it would be interesting to see the barrel code. It is probably an Imperial era barrel, probably DWM or Oberspree in markings and style, which is to say it is typical of a 1917-1918 DWM/Oberspree produced rifle barrel, meaning the barrel code is probably in front of the rearsight, possibly under the handguard, - not the same as an S28 which have some differences because they were made covertly in the late 1920's.

*** regarding the "discrepancy" of Oberspree using a VCS receiver, this is not unusual, all of the "consortium" firms (CGH/VCS/JPS) made excess receivers and many were used in the interwar period for commercial production. Storz actually shows one example, but there are several consortium receivers that were used as a foundation for an ordnance shops assembled G98. One thing that is very common is for receivers from WWI being stashed away because they were critical "bottleneck" components that could be hidden easily. Incredibly common are the Spandau marked receivers made by Pieper and S&H that were extensively used in the Republican and national socialist eras to build rifles. Makers or assemblers in all cases are determined by inspection (acceptance), not the maker/date marked on the top of a receiver.

 

[BEN74]

Here is a photo of infront of the rear sight, is this the code you meant?

 

[SimsonSuhl]

Yes, this is the barrel code, Bö=Böhler 31 the lot, alone this means little, but collectively they can show patterns (makers/assemblers often favored certain makers in ranges and lots "generally" progress), This barrel was probably made by DWM, they favored Böhler, as did WOK/Oberspree. VCS almost never used such a barrel, typically VCS and CGH used JPS made barrels and JPS almost always used Bergische Stahl-Industrie, as did Mauser. Only the arsenals & Simson can be considered pragmatic when it came to suppliers.

Anyway, a barrel commonly found on DWM/Oberspree, not a Suhl.

 

[BEN74]

Thanks SimsonSul. Very much interesting information. Was better than I had hoped for.
Can you say anything about the 1.21. unit Marking on the stock disk?

P.s. The gun probably came to Norway in WWII, same with the Simson å co bayo.

 

[SimsonSuhl]

Incomplete, or abbreviated, either way impossible to connect to any service, let alone a unit. If Norway, good chance police or KM (naval), something like this, basically an obsolete rifle by 1940-42, would have been relegated to police or security formation.

 

[bones92]

Very nice find. I had a neat Gew 98M once... sold it and regretted it ever since.

 

[BEN74]

Quickly done when you need money or the like Bones92, this is the first Gew 98 of any kind i have ever seen in person.
There are many k98k here, cant give them away in 3006 gov. A good k98k in 7,92x57mm starts at 200$ and up.
There is some shortened Gew98 s to k98k config, but only from the 30s not older.
After their 5 year vacation starting 1940 the Gearmans left 400.000 K98k s here and half of them vere reberreled to 3006 gov. in the 50s.
So we're lucky like that. I have had many good and satisfactory projects on M98 actions.