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Some other good reading on the military actions and pressure is in P.O. Ackley's Handbooks 1 and 2. These dwelve into his blow-up tests etc and sruprisingly enough, the strongest action he's ever tested of any action. It's not what you'd think. Loads that blew the rings off other actions, gave normal pressure signs in this particular military action.
: His writing covers case design and it's effects on bolt thrust, barrel strength etc. I am surprised when I hear that some people don't have them. I've had both copies since 1972.
 

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I'm sorry to have to say that, but whatever respect I have for Ackley, many of his statements were contested by reknown scientist and researchers. While he might have been the sharpcat of his days, the knowledge evolves even in that field (gunsmithing). Mauser researchers have come to very different conclusions than Mr. Ackley (who was not a scientist) after having in hands REAL DOCUMENTS from the Mauser Werke factory. A good example here, by the well respected Larry Ellis from the Mauser Mothly; http://www.frombearcreek.com/nonfiction/m_monthly/vol_2/ED9VOL2.pdf

Then, again and again, one can do whatever he wants, it's not my business.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
640's, etc...

Ackely's tests certainly are interesting, instructive and entertaining, but in no way can be said to be comprehensive or even scientific. For example, loads tested among the various actions are not identical and were not even pressure tested and thus actual pressure comparisons cannot be made. In addition, due to differences in production and heat treatment used among the various makers and under varying wartime conditions, I would not personally be comfortable pushing the envelope on the basis of a couple actions blow up. For example, witness the differences between the Rem and Rem/Eddy 1917's. these were two factories making the same action. What is to say that two different production runs of Arisakas or more to the point, husky's or CG's don't possess widely divergent strengths.

When it comes to the 9.3x62, I would think prudence and the desire to preserve one's face would encourage very careful loading {read; downloading} of 640 series rifles when built on 94 actions or 94 strengthened actions. Whether FN 98's used in 640-series rifles are actually stronger is unknown to me but certainly they possess a third safety lug and vastly better gas handling features not found on a 94/640-type. I'm willing to concede that some modern actions can handle loads generating better than 2300 fps with 285 grain bullets, but if it was my rifle and my face at stake I would not push the 640.

As has been noted by Pettson regarding catastrophic destructions of 6.5 96's a while back, lug shear in a 94/96 can be devastating where the same shear in a 98 has a much better chance of not being, due to the third lug and better gas handling. Herr Mauser thought the same thing and didn't add those safety features just for smiles and giggles.
 

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sé le viè - very interesting - so neither of you would use a military mauser or comercial mauser action for modern rounds?
: Are all those M98's sold comercially in .308Win., time bombs? - I've never heard of any of them blowing up over 35 years of shooting them. I have heard of Remintons and Winchesters blowing, though. So far, I've never stretched the lugs, on the bolt or in the action - maybe I'm playing with fire, maybe not.
: My very first match rilfe had a VZ 98 action, barreled and chambered in the 'full bore' ie:.308. Far as I know, that action is still going strong after 35 years as a .308 or whatever it's barreled to now.
: The first rifle gift I made to my brother was a Mauser 98 in .30/06. It did very well on long range deer with 150gr. at 3,100fps.
 

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Daryl,
Large Rings are different than Small Rings, and this is well said, documented and widely accepted. FNH sold their latest "H" type action to Weatherby (first sold through Sako). I think you misread our point here.
There is one of our compatriote who shot a Turk Mauser 98 with a round loaded to 67 000 PSI, he didn't even know it, "cause he never got a pressure sign and he is still alive today. Yoiu must agree that such a situation leaves very little edge for error. An accident happens fast and it's not our goal to encourage potentially dangerous situations. As I said, I don't mean it's not possible to do it, I say it can be done at one's own risks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
94. not 98

Daryl, I am not saying a 98 isn't capable of handling .308. 270, etc rounds.

To the contrary, I'm saying that I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding a 94 action type a steady diet of rounds loaded to the highest working pressures commonly used with 98's.

As for Ackely, his books are very interesting and his blowup tests were in my opinion very entertaining but I sure wish he used a "standardized" cartridge and identical load progression in demonstrating the strengths of the actions. It would have given a much better picture of just how comparable are the actions he tested and might also give a modern experimenter a procedure to follow if he cared to test other actions. this assuming pressure testing of the ammunition used.

As for HVA's, de Haas has mentioned the extreme hardness of some he tested. Whether that was merely surface carburizing or a situation of hardness all the way through the action I am not certain. If it was the latter it is possible, possible, that some might reflect similar properties to those exhibited by some Eddystone and Springfield actions. Again, if that is the case, a failure might not be noticed in lug setback but rather in catastrophic disintegration of the action without much or any warning or if only the bolt was effected, lug shear. In the case of the former, a third lug might not matter much. In the case of the latter, it might matter a lot, as mentioned a while back regarding some instances of lug shear in military 94/96/38's.

I am really not trying to paint a picture of 94 action types being smoking hand grenades, only pointing out their design antiquity and my own personal preference to hold that action type to pressures lower than what I might be comfortable shooting in a modern action. I do so with my own M46 in 9.3x57 and would do same with a 9.3x62 in the same action type. If another fellow wants to shoot heavier loads in his own 46/640 all the power to him.
 

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I personally wouldn't feed a perfect condition 95, 93 or 96 the same as I would a good 98 either. I also definitely wouldn't limit myself to 38,000CUP when Norma themselves load it to 47,000CUP. Since Husky chambered some 96's for the '06, what pressure did they have in mind?
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Since Husky chambered some 96's for the '06, what pressure did they have in mind?
Seriously, this is a really good question.

Another good question is what pressure did Herr Mauser have in mind when he added a third lug and some big gaping gas ports on the bolt...? :D
 

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As far as I know, HVA never barreled any M96 in 30-06.. Stiga did and so did others. And I think they "normalized" (slow cooling heat treatment - also called re-tempering) all the receivers before doing so, just like BSA and others did with M-17 and P14s. Also, as I said before, MAP is not an absolute reading; most of the commercial manufacturers, for evident reasons, load their ammos to about 85% of the said MAP and sometimes even lower (and it's good either for CIP and SAAMI standards).
 

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Points taken guys.
: About that third lug and gas ports, well, there were actions of similar 'pressure' design from other countries that lacked both. The 98 is the only twin front lug action I'm aware of that has that third lug. As far as being useful, I've never seen it, not that that means it hasn't happened, just that I've never heard of it doing anything but being there. Gas ports and such are good selling points for a maker to show a government official who knows nothing of rifles- sounds good is what I'm getting at.
; The Springfield actions early and newly made along with all the other modern actions lack the gas ports of the 98, and are no better than the m96 in handling escaping gas.
; If you want to see an action that you can't blow the bolt out of, look no further than the Lee Enfield, in any of it's post WW1 guises & even the #3. We tried to blow the bolts on a few and failed. We got a bolt to bend using a case full of bullseye and a bullet plugged barrel, but the action held and so did the barrel. Care to guess at the pressure? Not that that has anything to do with the Mausers.
 

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Add the 03 Springfield to the list of twin front lug actions with a third safety lug, just a copy of Mauser design anyway. The Mannlicher military bolt actions including the Schoenauer system all use the bolt handle base/guide rib as a safety lug against the wall of the right side of the receiver. Just as large and heavy or more so than the 3rd lug of the 98. Plenty of designs with a third lug. The bolt shroud design of the 98 has to be considered a definate plus with the deflection flange should a cartridge case let go and the gas make back that far to the shooters face and eyes. Even the 1902 New Model Mannlichers had that. Something the pre 98 Mausers lack, but the thumb cut of the military actions would probably release most of the problem at that point coming along the left side lug raceway. The '03s cone shaped barrel breech doesn't support the cartridge base as well as a Mauser and is a presumed weak spot when it comes to a rupture. When one does happen, all the gas pressure needs to go somewhere and the gas ports no matter what rifle usually point it into the magazine and/or the bolt race ways. The Lee Enfield however uses the gas ports on the left side of the receiver opposite the bolt head. The great advantage of the rimmed cartridge, flat faced bolt and near complete encircled case head makes a very strong breech. The small extractor cut in the barrel has a matching relieved cut in the receiver on the right should a failure occur there. Many Military L/E rifle bolts only engage on one lug, or just barely onto the second. Some setback occurs to correct the situation through use. Headspace expands as a result, but is easiest of the lot to correct with the separate bolt head. L/E are strong, but do have limits. The gas handling abilitys are limited by the very small ports and the action does have it's strength limits too. I've have seen them blown but that prooves nothing. Anything can be destroyed. Ackley did alot of the blow 'em up tests on different military rifles after WW2 and came to the conclusion that the Arisaka was the strongest of the lot. There hasn't been a run on custom built sporting rifles on Arisaka actions just yet but it's an entertaining read.
BTW I do personally rate my Lee Sporting rifles right up there with anything else I own. One is in 400/350 and it handles it just fine.
This has been a great thread with interesting views and information.
 

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Daryl,
The problem with such a forum, is that everyone can read this thread and it may put some weird ideas in disturbed minds. Also, while the Lee-Enfields are with no doubt good and proven actions, I've seen actions blown with standard (even mild US loaded) ammunitions because of too much headspace. Most of us, Canadians, have at least one Lee-Enfield in the safe, but how many of them have good headspace settings?...

Now, back to the subject of this thread, Lee, here's my 649, pics are so, so. It is the post-WWII type with no-thumb notch, and was in mint condition (read, almost new) when I got it. Just a little bit of oil on the stock and here she goes moose hunting.
 

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Baribal - very nice. They sure look good without the thumb-cut, don't they. I couldn't see in the photo, but is the rear bridge without the clip slot? It would be rather superfluous.
The old addage that if one does not understand what headspace is and how to control it/correct it, one has no business handloading, comes to mind.
: My brand new, but used of course, 9.3x57 is case in point. It has too much headspace to shoot with any brass (factory ammo) one wishes to reload. The headspace isnt bad enough to create ignition problems - probably - but is severe enough to require proper case care for the first loading' and firing to move the shoudler to where it should be. The thread on "oversize chambers" comes to mind.
: I concurr that some readers of threads might do some foolish things, but isn't that the natural order of selection in progress? Sorry - couldn't resist that. You are correct, we should be careful how we word posts.:eek:
 

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Daryl,

Actually, they kept the clip notch... really don't know why, but it's good with me; even if that size of clip is a bit scarce (I have some left here - sorry, for my personal use!) I like loading the lady with clips... it makes it a fast moose and bear slayer...

As for natural selection, I must agree... (lol!) - But, that is, we tend to forget that the NET is an opened window....
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
There it is!!

Thanks for posting, Baribal!

I had an 8x57 in the exact same configuration. The solid wall action is really a unique action in its own right. Looks like you replaced the bead front sight with a post?
 

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Baribal - are the clips for the 9.3x62 the same as those for the 6.5x55?
: I noticed my pile of .308 clips from Canadian Military ammo(DCRA
) works just fine with the 9.3x57, as they should.
: I-too liked using the clips with the 6.5, which is why I used a B-square mount on the rear sight. The 6.5 just had too much usable range to be restricted to irons. Then I sold it to my moose hunting buddy for his daughter - he got the last 2 clips I had for the 6.5.
 
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