[Baribal]

Hi to you all,

Bob, what permitted you getting these load charges is the OAL, wich is, for CIP 83.6 mm. The results you got are right on the spot (see attached charts, made from your 3rd load, usinng 57 gr (or a Load Density of 89%) of Rl15, 286 gr Partition for 3.340 OAL) regarding the simulation I conducted for this. Interchanging the brass is then critical, because not all the brass have the same capacity in grains of water. I saw plenty of weird stuff regarding the 9.3X62, many loads are way too high in velocity and charge as an exemple; the 66 grains of RL 15 with the 286 gr Partition is 112.1 % of load density at the OAL showed; 3.340 inches... I think, and it's my personal thinking, that we should stick to realistic, actual loads printed in recent loading manuals (even there, there are some very funny cases). CIP's maximum MAP pressure for the X62 is 3900 bar (56,500 PSI) and most commercial cases are running around 77 grains of water of capactiy, while the X64 wich have much more case capacity (88 grains of water) works at a much higher pressure (4400 bar, of 64 000 PSI), so, in my mind, I would never compare those two rounds.
Loads are really a matter of the general conditions of a certain rifle, but if one stays within the pressure limits of the CIP code, no-one should have problem. SAAMI allowed different pressures points for certain calibers, but, to my knowledge, CIP never did because their loads are, most of the time, already quite healthy, while SAAMI iare very conservative (8X57, 6.5X55 and others). The first pic is chamber pressure vs charge, second one is chamber vs load density and the third is muzzle velocity vs load density. If you look at the results Bob got vs the load tables from others (that Bob brang to us) you will see what is reality and what is pure fiction. Whatyou see showing 56.1 grains of RL15 is what the program set as the most efficient load. Don't forget the OAl used for this simulation is 3.340, but max CIP is 3.300 and MAX for M96 is 3.260 inches. Last pic is the key, charge vs load density.

 

[Baribal]

Lee, you're too curious

I'll post some pic later, I don't have good light for now. It's a 649, M96 (or, if you want a M38) action. I got it in "AS NEW" condition, almost unissued. You know, the main limitations for velocity is case capacity and suitable powders. Because of it's mid-size brass and capacity, the very slow end burning powders can't be used. I too, and since a long time (that's what you were looking at, isn't it?) have lots of doubts regarding those velocities. So, I tried the best I can to reach the sky (but safely) with all the rifles I could find. It did not happen. Not even with a Blaser. You know, today we want the best out of our tubes, so we think we can beat science. But it's no more alchemia, it's real science wich is applied to our guns. And whatever one can say, the part of science used in guns did not evoluate as fast as we think. In fact, it's almost at the same point than when P. Mauser was designing the M98. Metallurgy, machining and testing have made their way, but not ballistics.
Now, anyone having a M96 in good shape can expect as much as factory loads can deliver without a problem. What I can suggest is to buy some factory loaded ammunitions and shoot it with a chronograph. Then, try to duplicate it, or at least to get close to it.

 

[Baribal]

About military Mauser action strenght, I strongly recommend the reading of the very interesting books; "Mauser Bolt Action Rifles" from Ludwig Olsen (some stuff related to the content of the book http://www.rawles.to/Mauser_FAQ.html) and also Kent's "German 7,9 Military Ammunition" to have an idea of proof-testing that was done on these Mausers. The June-July 2007 Vol. 42, No. 3 issue of Handloader also scratches the subject. Everyone seems to forget these actions are made for a specific cartridge and not the inverse.

That you can do something does not mean it's right doing it. It seems that the notion of MAP is not really understood by lots of reloaders.
I think it's our north american distortion of the reality that pushes people to increase the pressure of those very efficient cartridges and actions. A little like transforming a Freightliner or a Mack into a racer.

 

[Baribal]

I'm sorry to have to say that, but whatever respect I have for Ackley, many of his statements were contested by reknown scientist and researchers. While he might have been the sharpcat of his days, the knowledge evolves even in that field (gunsmithing). Mauser researchers have come to very different conclusions than Mr. Ackley (who was not a scientist) after having in hands REAL DOCUMENTS from the Mauser Werke factory. A good example here, by the well respected Larry Ellis from the Mauser Mothly; http://www.frombearcreek.com/nonfiction/m_monthly/vol_2/ED9VOL2.pdf

Then, again and again, one can do whatever he wants, it's not my business.

 

[Baribal]

Daryl,
Large Rings are different than Small Rings, and this is well said, documented and widely accepted. FNH sold their latest "H" type action to Weatherby (first sold through Sako). I think you misread our point here.
There is one of our compatriote who shot a Turk Mauser 98 with a round loaded to 67 000 PSI, he didn't even know it, "cause he never got a pressure sign and he is still alive today. Yoiu must agree that such a situation leaves very little edge for error. An accident happens fast and it's not our goal to encourage potentially dangerous situations. As I said, I don't mean it's not possible to do it, I say it can be done at one's own risks.

 

[Baribal]

As far as I know, HVA never barreled any M96 in 30-06.. Stiga did and so did others. And I think they "normalized" (slow cooling heat treatment - also called re-tempering) all the receivers before doing so, just like BSA and others did with M-17 and P14s. Also, as I said before, MAP is not an absolute reading; most of the commercial manufacturers, for evident reasons, load their ammos to about 85% of the said MAP and sometimes even lower (and it's good either for CIP and SAAMI standards).

 

[Baribal]

Daryl,
The problem with such a forum, is that everyone can read this thread and it may put some weird ideas in disturbed minds. Also, while the Lee-Enfields are with no doubt good and proven actions, I've seen actions blown with standard (even mild US loaded) ammunitions because of too much headspace. Most of us, Canadians, have at least one Lee-Enfield in the safe, but how many of them have good headspace settings?...

Now, back to the subject of this thread, Lee, here's my 649, pics are so, so. It is the post-WWII type with no-thumb notch, and was in mint condition (read, almost new) when I got it. Just a little bit of oil on the stock and here she goes moose hunting.

 

[Baribal]

Daryl,

Actually, they kept the clip notch... really don't know why, but it's good with me; even if that size of clip is a bit scarce (I have some left here - sorry, for my personal use!) I like loading the lady with clips... it makes it a fast moose and bear slayer...

As for natural selection, I must agree... (lol!) - But, that is, we tend to forget that the NET is an opened window....

 

[Baribal]

Not Me!

Lee,

it's untouched, anyways, by me but looks like an original to me, seen the condition of the rifle. The only thing I removed is the hood over the front sight (the "big" type) because it was flipping up in a "pling" sound after three shots (light rifle - great recoil).

 

[Baribal]

IVI clip don't work for me

Daryl,

IVI clip (7.62X51) doens't work neither does the 8X57 clips. It has to be the 6.5 clip... that's why I kept mine... I, too, don't have no more M96/38 6.5, I am now using my Tikka HB Varmint 65X55 for taget (and varmint/scavenger) shooting.

 

[Baribal]

While it is true that a fire can destroy the heat treatment of a rifle, think about this; How many folks are going to invest the money to restock a rifle and refinish it when the going rate for said rifles is a mere $350? A decent stock and bluing will run twice that.

That said, I'm constantly amazed that people will gravitate toward a cartridge that has built its reputation as a solid reliable killer of game even though it is a low pressure round, and then want to somehow modernize (magnumize) it. With some of the modern powders, loads netting in excess of 100 fps of factory loads can he attained whilst still meeting CIP pressure standards. For those wanting more, the 9,3x64 will easily deliver.

The Husqvarna 649's are light weight rifles, I have several as is the M46AN. They are much more enjoyable with factory loads or BOOK max loads than they are with hot rodded loads. Those wanting to load to 64K PSI would be better off doing so in a cz550 which is a heftier rifle made of modern steel.

Earlier in this thread, I believe it was DK that pointed out that each Mauser action was built around the cartridge it was intended to fire. Thus, heat treatment was designed for that action for that cartridge.

I agree 100% what is stated by Z1R