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X marks the spot

9K views 36 replies 15 participants last post by  Drew 
#1 · (Edited)
OK, so the general consensus is that the Russians marked their captured rifles. The most prevalent and commonly found "Russian Capture" proof is an "X" stamp somewhere on the receiver, usually on the left near the serial number, but also occasionally centered at or near 12 o'clock someplace. The size and shape of the mark varies widely, from a faint partial stamp to a deep clear "X" in a Times Roman or similar font. I've also seen stamps that appear to have been done with the corner of a chisel or a flat tool of some sort, 2 intersecting marks. Here are a few of mine, and a Google search for "mauser k98 russian capture markings photos" will find you many more examples.



So some of you are thinking "Gunhorde - you idiot! You've created an RC German Mauser thread in our beloved Mosin-Nagant Forum!"

Not at all, there's a method to my madness.

I've started out this thread to show the variety of "Russian Capture marks" specifically highlighting the "X" stamp commonly found on captured German rifles.

And then there's THIS:



Seems a little odd, right? "Wait a second, THAT'S not a German Mauser...."

Correct. It's a 1943 Tula M91/30 with an 1895 Izhevsk receiver.

It gets better - it's got a blued bolt.



From everything I've been reading online, these blued bolts are "generally" attributed to German captured rifles.

The bolt appears to be original to the barrel, the Cyrillic prefix and numbers match the shank markings:
While not identical in font, the size and shape of the bolt serial # appears to be correct.



The buttplate looks good too:



The magazine floorplate is a lined-out renumbered piece, but the lined-out number here is interesting. It's of a smaller font atypical for Russian stamps, and appears to be similar to renumbered floorplates associated with German captured Mosin-Nagants. The Cyrillic matching restamped serial number appears to be correct Russian refurbished.



The receiver is an 1895 Izhevsk, re-stamped at Tula in 1943.



So, my question is - Is this possibly a German captured, Russian re-captured M91/30?

There's a small CAI import mark on the underside of the barrel just behind the front sight base.

I have another "recaptured" rifle, my 1940 Tula M91/30 with Latvian proofs "F.L.P. Mi." - which is also a matching refurbished rifle, the Latvian proofs are lined out but clearly visible.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
The rest of the pics

When re-stamped, the new tang markings appear to be INTENTIONALLY offset, to preserve the original Imperial Russian markings, The 4 and 3 are widely spaced, and the Tula star is offset and only partially struck. Whoever re-marked this receiver seems to have wanted to preserve the original markings for some unknown reason. Maybe nostalgia for the old pre-war Imperial days? For the Glory of Mother Russia? Who knows. I've just never seen this intentional preservation of the earlier markings. All other examples of wartime rifles with hex receivers has the new stampings directly over the top of the older proofs.

*CORRECTION* - RacerGuy caught it, the "3" is barely visible right next to the 4. The 3 further to the right is a separate number. Thanks RacerGuy!



I realize that "typical" German captured Mosin-Nagant rifles are sometimes seen with polished rear sight leafs (leaves?).

If this was an RC rifle then the rear sight leaf was probably replaced during refurbishment. All speculation of course.


Same tang photo, inverted to show the 43 date and Tula star - the 3 to the right is a separate number unrelated to the date.



Macro enlargement showing faint 3



Steel shims both front and rear.



Tula bolt head and cocking knob.



Tula stock



Comments and conjecture welcome and appreciated, I've never seen a rifle like this before so I'd like to hear from other about these "blued bolt" rifles, and the possibility that the small "X" on the barrel shank may be a "Russian Capture" mark.

Too bad the stock hasn't got any "Kru 1" stamps on it, but I'm sure the stock was swapped out when the rifle was refurbished anyway.

Thanks in advance for any comments and/or information!

:thumbsup:
 
#6 ·
I have an x on a PL marked Finn capture. Not sure what it means. The 43 on the tang isn't spaced out. I can see a faint 3 next to the 4. The other 3 I think is unrelated. I've had a couple of older receivers with a three in that same spot.

View attachment 2258857
Thanks for the correction on the tang date, I've updated my post. I didn't see that tiny faint line for what it was until you pointed it out.
 
#11 ·
I agree that it's an unknown, and may be something entirely different. But that combined with a blued bolt got me to thinking, which is why i put up the pics and the suggestion, to get other members thoughts and opinions.

The lined out non-Russian number on the magazine plate is another interesting feature. On rifles that are documented as being German capture, that lined out number appears to be the same, a smaller non-Russian font.

This all could be just an interesting coincidence of assembled parts, but I'd like to think otherwise and wanted some opinions as to the possibility.
 
#15 ·
I have seen more than a few Mosins and other soviet small arms(including side arms) with the X. Mostly the X I've seen has been on refurbished rifles and I cannot remember ever seeing it on anything Finnish captured or from SCW.

Some Xs may be totally unrelated to others. My poor mans opinion for the past decade has been that these rifles received an X when they went through refurbishment as captured firearms. But obviously the Russians knew a German Mauser was a captured weapon. I'd love to know the general consensus but it's been discussed so many times over the past decade that everyone has formed their own idea of what it means.
 
#16 ·
Many Luger collectors will tell you that the X is not a letter, but "crossed rifles". From there they will go on to prove that the Lugers with crossed rifles are actually Russian despite being marked with Bulgarian text. ;)
 
#20 ·
gunhorde,

Concerning the blued bolt. Does it appear to have been done in the states or do you think its original to the refurb timeframe (whenever that was)?
 
#21 · (Edited)
Re: blued bolts - Romanian example



Given that the markings are highlighted either by an exporter or importer, I'm of the opinion that the bolt was blued during or before the refurb period. If not German or Russian done, possibly a Romanian embellishment? I know the Romanians blued some bolts, here's a photo of the blued bolt on an all-matching 1953 dated Romanian M-44 I used to own:



The bluing on the M91-30 bolt is similar in the deep (almost black) color of the finish on the above Romanian bolt.
 
#23 ·
Thanks! Regardless of the ability to prove any German capture/Russian re-capture aspect, the combination of interesting features all on one rifle is nice:

Wartime Tula with a hex receiver
Blued bolt
Antique 1895 receiver
Uncommon "X" mark

One additional feature of the rifle that I haven't mentioned is the front sight - It's been arsenal staked during refurbishment, but the sight globe is WAAAAY over to the rifle as viewed while sighting the rifle. Further than any other rifle I've seen before (with the exception of a Turk Model 1938 that was a horrible shooter and sold long ago). According to the previous owner, this rifle is very accurate so I won't be touching the sight position until I've had a chance to test fire it.
 
#37 ·
Can't speak for Sparky but I have two recaptured 91/30's as well as a Russian captured Tikka. None of the rifles have the X mark or any other markings that would be out of the ordinary for a Finnish/Russian rifle. The Tikka had the original Finnish markings lined out but no other markings applied other than a Russian refurbish mark.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Guys, lets not have another Maybe become Reality like the famous East German 91/30 theme which began with speculation and with enough folks bailing in and singing Kumbaya, the myth became reality in minds. Those bent minds got skunked , paying premiums for these rifles until the truth came out of Russia .

Lets keep this X thing a theory and let it stand at that until proven or disproved. Today we don't know. ..and WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW.

Personally I'd like to see the truth come out and perhaps some of these rifles past history will be firmly known.

and on blue bolts.....That myth is a weak one but there are guys paying big bucks for rifles with them and I think they're going to take a dive. Folks connecting dots that are not there but they want them to be so they chase rainbows.

Lastly, that beveled area with an X is clearly something. I don't think that is a inspection mark, that is a deliberate mark to denote something important. I have never seen such an example so I must ask, has this surfaced before and known? I would speculate that example might mean reserve, cadet or training use, clearly marked not for active service use. Its there to be seen and noted...sort of like the British did with "DP" marking . There is too much effort to mill out that area to simply mark it as "captured". Thousands of captured rifles...they'd just strike a X or whatever on it and move on. This milled with X marking is interesting and as said, I think its more than captured on battlefield mark.

Va Vet: I keep telling ya, bring the other rifles over here and I 'll blue the rest of your non blue bolt Mosins so your collection is complete. We can go down to Richmond Gun Show and see if that guy who always seemed to have a 41 marked Mosin on his table ...see if he could whack a few of your rifles so you can have some 41's.
 
#26 ·
In keeping with the "X" theme, I've got numerous rifles with a bevel or cutout of some sort at the front shoulder of the barrel as pictured above. Some are flat as the above example, others almost appear to be shaped as though a rod-shaped grinding implement had been used horizontally. These modifications may have been done to prevent the original Konolov rear sights from touching the barrel if the rear sight base was modified or lowered for a "2" step, but most of the rifles are NOT Finnish marked. Are there differences in the height of the rear sight base for other reasons? The 1923 Tula ex-dragoon pictured above is the only example I ever owned that had an X in that location. Now I wish I'd kept it. :eek:
 
#28 ·
I would think that if the "X" were a "released from service" marking of some sort, then ALL imported rifles would be so marked or at least far more than are being encountered. Swiss rifles are also marked when released for civilian sale.

Granted that some would be missed due to the sheer volume of rifles released, but not as many non "X"-marked rifles as are seen. As you've said, it could be anything, and there are numerous types and styles of these marks, possibly unrelated in meaning.

Has anyone got Putin's direct cell #? I need to give him a call...
 
#29 ·
Putin is not returning my phone calls anymore, but the "X" was discussed several times on the Russian forums. No one could make a connection specifically with the captured K98k. Could be a specific (but unknown) depot's mark.
 
#30 ·
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