[bmdogan]

Hello,
I thought Winchester and WW1 enthusiasts might be interested in this one. Winchester Model 1910 at İstanbul Military Museum, with German markings on it. Most likely captured from the French. How it ended up with the Turks, and what capacity it was used, I don't know. It's from an academic paper I got my hands on. Details below
Enjoy

 

[RCRBanjo]

Appears to have scope mounts.....kool!

 

[Edward Tinker]

Weren't these used as prison guard rifles in the USA?

 

[sigshr]

A 1910 ? They were pretty rare. Wouldn't it be a 1907 ?

 

[johnsonlmg]

Could have just been imported post war and proof tested? The 1910 IIRC is the lowest production, sort of scarce and I collect the forgotten Winchesters. Cool guns. I've done a lot of work on them.

 

[Apache c-10]

It's a 1910, they were .401 the 07's were .351, and I believe there was a 1905 in .35 wsl.

 

[ktr]

Could have simply been imported into Germany were it would have needed to be Govt proofed before commercial sale.
Perhaps the new owner has the claw mount scope system put on it.
He or another owner travels to Turkey at some point and the rifle ends up staying there.

The German Govt did place some 'observers and advisors' within the
Turk armed forces ranks in the time running up to WW1.
Maybe something one of those Officers brought with them & it/they never returned.
Brit Officers were often bringing their sporting arms along when deployed aroung the Empire. Take advantage of
the best the world had to offer.
Privlidged status and all that. Same was true in the other Royalty's


Lot's of 'maybe' senarios.
But they are just that.
Nice rifle. I have a Mod1910 made in '14 and it is a fun shooter.

 

[RS]

Could have simply been imported into Germany were it would have needed to be Govt proofed before commercial sale.
Perhaps the new owner has the claw mount scope system put on it.
He or another owner travels to Turkey at some point and the rifle ends up staying there.

The German Govt did place some 'observers and advisors' within the
Turk armed forces ranks in the time running up to WW1.
Maybe something one of those Officers brought with them & it/they never returned.
Brit Officers were often bringing their sporting arms along when deployed aroung the Empire. Take advantage of
the best the world had to offer.
Privlidged status and all that. Same was true in the other Royalty's


Lot's of 'maybe' senarios.
But they are just that.
Nice rifle. I have a Mod1910 made in '14 and it is a fun shooter.

Both the Winchester Model 1907 in 351 cal and the Winchester Model 1910 in
401 cal were purchased by France early in WW1. France also manufactured
both the 351 WSL and 401 WSL cartridges. Early 351 and 401 cartridges with
French headstamps and 1916 dates have been found too. Photo shows the
Winchester 32 WSL, 35 WSL, 351 WSL and 401 WSL

 

[ktr]

France didn't buy all that many 1910's. At least what the W records show is 150 rifles plus 25K rounds of ammo in a single order in 1915.
The order came through a private company acting as a purchasing agent for the French Gov't.]

An addition order later in the War in '17 for a large amt of .401 ammo, (400K rds?) ,but no more rifles,,leads some 'experts' to guess that the French got additional m1910 rifles from some other source than Winchester.
Where that may have been, they don't speculate.

W records show that Russian placed an order for (total) 500+ Model 1910 rifles in 1915 and 1916.
There are no details listed in those records beyond that initial order so they say.

So the rifles were in WW1. That has been established.
The M1907 in 351cal as well.

The rifle shown here was made in 1913 if I can see the ser correctly.

However.
All the above does nothing to establish that the OP's rifle was somehow captured by the Turks from the French ,,the Germans involved in some way. All that playing out in a WW1 battle field senario somehow.
It'd be nice to be able to put that all together.

But in reality. all you have at this point is a Winchester Model 1910 in 401 cal.
It appears to have been mfg in 1913.
It has had European style claw mount bases added for 'scope.
The rifle has been proofed in Germany sometime between the time it was manufactured at Winchester (1913(?) and 1939.

The German proof marks that are on it are standard marks used in the time period 1891 to 1939.
The Crown/B was the standard mark for proofing firearms that were in their finished state.
It was also used to proof mark foreign made firearms that were from countrys were Germany did not recognize their Proof Standards,,or the country had no Govt mandated Proofing system (like the USA).

There is nothing there to indicate capture, military use by any country,.
It's a sporting rifle that made it's way to Germany at some point and got claw mount scope bases & rings fitted.
Scope and rings long gone which is not unusual.
It got a German Gov't mandated proofing and marking at the time.

Maybe just a rifle imported into Germany to a retailer there. Bought by a customer. Taken to a foreign land at some point in life and there it stayed.
You can't take stuff with you when you check out the final time. Someone ends up with it and they do what they want with it..

 

[bmdogan]

France didn't buy all that many 1910's. At least what the W records show is 150 rifles plus 25K rounds of ammo in a single order in 1915.
The order came through a private company acting as a purchasing agent for the French Gov't.]

An addition order later in the War in '17 for a large amt of .401 ammo, (400K rds?) ,but no more rifles,,leads some 'experts' to guess that the French got additional m1910 rifles from some other source than Winchester.
Where that may have been, they don't speculate.

W records show that Russian placed an order for (total) 500+ Model 1910 rifles in 1915 and 1916.
There are no details listed in those records beyond that initial order so they say.

So the rifles were in WW1. That has been established.
The M1907 in 351cal as well.

The rifle shown here was made in 1913 if I can see the ser correctly.

However.
All the above does nothing to establish that the OP's rifle was somehow captured by the Turks from the French ,,the Germans involved in some way. All that playing out in a WW1 battle field senario somehow.
It'd be nice to be able to put that all together.

But in reality. all you have at this point is a Winchester Model 1910 in 401 cal.
It appears to have been mfg in 1913.
It has had European style claw mount bases added for 'scope.
The rifle has been proofed in Germany sometime between the time it was manufactured at Winchester (1913(?) and 1939.

The German proof marks that are on it are standard marks used in the time period 1891 to 1939.
The Crown/B was the standard mark for proofing firearms that were in their finished state.
It was also used to proof mark foreign made firearms that were from countrys were Germany did not recognize their Proof Standards,,or the country had no Govt mandated Proofing system (like the USA).

There is nothing there to indicate capture, military use by any country,.
It's a sporting rifle that made it's way to Germany at some point and got claw mount scope bases & rings fitted.
Scope and rings long gone which is not unusual.
It got a German Gov't mandated proofing and marking at the time.

Maybe just a rifle imported into Germany to a retailer there. Bought by a customer. Taken to a foreign land at some point in life and there it stayed.
You can't take stuff with you when you check out the final time. Someone ends up with it and they do what they want with it..

Good insight KTR ... The museum that has the item, has many obscure WW1 rifles (by obscure, I mean rifles from fronts/periods/battles/nations the Turks weren't directly involved with) and I believe they were in the inventory of the Istanbul Arsenal during the WW1 years, and the museum took them over later... My guess is, the Arsenal officials were making a point of getting these rifles from their allies, to study them ; again, just a guess at my part... What we know as 'facts' are limited to what you mentioned....

 

[Story]

Round translation of the Turkish text -

otomatik tufeginin bir olarak nitelendirebilecegimiz bir silahtir. Atis yapmak icin sarjo takildiginda kundagin onundeki metal pararat (pistol) geri cekip ileri birakarak namluya mermi surulur ve sarjo bitene kadar silah ates etmeye devan edebilir.

It is a weapon that we can describe as one of the automatic rifles. When the charge is attached to shoot, the metal pararat (pistol) in front of the stock is pulled back and left forward, and a bullet is driven into the barrel, and the gun can continue to fire until the charge is finished.

dipcik, kabza ve kundak ahsaptir. Dipcik taban levhasi bakalittir. Tetik tertibati, mekanizma takimi, sarjor, distan silindirik icten yivli namlu, nisangah, bir bilezi, iki aski halkasi ve arpacic celiktendir.

butt, handle and stock are wooden. The butt plate is bakelite. Trigger assembly, mechanism set, magazine, external cylindrical internally threaded barrel, sight, a collar, two suspension rings and front sight are made of steel.

Since it's only a physical description, the Museum might not even know how they wound up with this artifact or what the backstory was.

 

[Story]

More on the Istanbul Military Museum displays
Istanbul Military Museum: Small Arms of the Ottoman Empire -The Firearm Blog