[keysort]

Hi, folks!
I just got in two Winchester 1897's worth of parts. Both are in awful condition, and will be a fun project. I am thinking about turning one into a trench gun replica, and keeping the other original. However, I'm at an impasse as to which to modify. One has a 30 inch barrel, and been stripped of all of its original finish, with very little pitting on the barrel and receiver. The other has a 26 inch barrel ("MOD" stamped) and its original finish, but is (very) heavily pitted and has deep gouge-like scratches on the barrel and receiver.

Given those criteria, would you modify the 30 inch, the 26 inch? I am planning on modifying one of them because I doubt either have real collector value, but I want the input of people here!

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

Would love to see some pictures.

Since your Trench Gun replica is going to get Parkerized, I would go with the one with the worse finish, a park job can hide a lot of pitting

 

[keysort]

Am I correct that not all trench guns were parked? I would like to make it close to WWI-spec, which I thought would be blued. Either way, a battlefield fresh look wouldn't be too bad, I think.

 

[03man]

I don't think it matters which one you cut down; neither is any better than the other.

The 26" bbl may be handier if you want to hunt; the 30" if you want to turkey shoot.

Throw a dart and don't worry.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure all trench guns were blued, till later in WWII. The parkerizing came after the war, during refurbishments.

 

[Tom D]

All Winchester Model 1897 and Model 97 trench guns were blued. The only trench guns that were parkerized prior to the Vietnam War were the late WWII made Model 12 trench guns.

 

[Ranger Z]

I would cut the 26" one. The pits and dings would add to the look. But I don't think you will be going wrong either way.

How about posting some pics for us as the project progresses?

 

[tt63]

These both appear to be take down guns. Prolly ought to be WWII config. Four row heatshield, blued, plastic buttplate, 1907 sling. 1917 bayonet. 20.5" barrel. You need the tube plug and the two long screws for it. They are around, and not cheap. I'd use as many repro parts as possible in keeping with the bogusness, and the fact you will save mondo bux. Plenty o' fake heat shields. Try to get one not welded, and not one piece. There is a guy at the PHX SAR Show who usually gets about $40 or $50 for one piece ones. Wholesale to cash. Probably worth $80.00 retail. They look aftermarket.

If you want to go for the Gusto, the front wood should have (I think, and can't find it right now) 17 grooves and 18 rings. The stock would get crossed cannons and maybe a GHD or WB. Have to look that up, too. The wood looks post teens/twenties. These are probably 1940s guns, just a guess.

Try them both out for function and reliability. If you have to go to a gunfight some night, be nice to know your new trench gun works and will slam fire if you need it. Use that one for your project assuming no special considerations otherwise.

The 30" is likely to be full choked; if it is cylinder (cyl), try to save it. I am not even certain they made a 30" cyl. Most cyl barrels, I think, were 26" long and called "Brush Guns". Also, your sight dot should be silver, not brass/gold. S/ns ought to be E xxxxxx where X = numerics.

We had '97s in RVN. They were parked. Incidently, I have a six row shield which is genuine and NOT FOR SALE. It is, however, parkerized. This leads me to believe that all of the guns went down the refurb line between Korea and RVN, and they all got new skins, whether they were takedown guns or not. The park is medium gray, almost a pewter color, wiith no greening whatsoever. It shows no sign of oil saturation or greasiness. It was parked over some pitting.

If you are taking special requests for this project? NO Weaver rail stuff (lights, sirens, etc).

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

+1 on going with the 26" version for the reproduction.

Here is one source of parts
http://www.wisnersinc.com/shotguns/winchester/pump.html

Numrich/e-Gunparts.com has the heat shield/bayonet lug as well as a rear sling swivel (you need to cut a recess for it)

 

[keysort]

I have the trench gun nearly complete! I realize some tiny details may be different from the original, but the battlefield fresh look is there! I do have some tinkering to do with it yet, and I'm hoping y'all will have advice. I have two problems:

1.The action cycles when the gun is empty, but the carrier will not go down when shells are in the mag tube. It completely locks up. I'm wondering if the carrier sits a fraction of an inch too far forward, and is causing it to hand on the rim of the shell.

2. The trigger cocks when the I work the action, but will not go to half cock or full cock if I simply pull it back. However, if I press the trigger forward while cocking, it will lock properly. It acts like it needs spring tension somewhere...can't tell what I could me missing, though. Maybe the sear is toast?

I'm missing the cartridge guide stop screw (the screw above the trigger), and I'm wondering if it relates to these problems...but I don't think it is.

Other than that, it locks up tight, shoots when a round is manually inserted, and it ejects properly. Any advice on tinkering to fix these problems?

She's a particularly ugly kind of pretty. I'll post pics of the 2nd one once I get it finished!

 

[amac]

Sweet :grin:

 

[wyatt243]

deffinitely has that been there done that look to it. nice work.....good luck with the problems tho, these old 97 can be finicky I have a 16 gauge 97 that will not shoot plastic shells at all but paper shells fly through like greased lightning I still havent figured that one out.

 

[jjk308 In Memoriam RIP]

deffinitely has that been there done that look to it. nice work.....good luck with the problems tho, these old 97 can be finicky I have a 16 gauge 97 that will not shoot plastic shells at all but paper shells fly through like greased lightning I still havent figured that one out.

A couple possibilities:
Paper shells may be made a little undersized to allow for them expanding as they suck in some humidity. This problem got so bad in the South pacific in WWII that brass shotshells were substituted. measure the shell diameters.

Also possible: The paper shells are often waterproofed with wax that may lubricate a little. A touch of spray or wipe with a silicone lube may help.

 

[keysort]

Thanks for the feedback! Being a firearms enthusiast, I have an assortment of shotgun shells laying around. I found a box of 20-year-old Remington shells (with plastic cases) that cycle. Shells of other make (winchester/federal) that will not cycle will function if I press ever so slightly on the case head. This leads me to believe that the bolt carrier is just slightly too long for modern shells. I honestly believe that I can file a minute amount of length from the carrier without adversely affecting the gun's function. As for the problem with my hammer not cocking or half-cocking without cycling the action, I'm thinking I'll need to buy a new sear.

Also, I'm almost done with the 1897 that I'm refinishing but keeping in original configuration.

 

[Ranger Z]

Excellent job! It looks great.

If you are missing a part, any part, I would definitely replace it before I started filing on anything. You mentioned that you are missing the cartridge guide stop screw. I would replace that first.

 

[keysort]

Agreed, Ranger Z. Even if it doesn't fix the problem, I think a file may even be overkill for the carrier, a bet a wire wheel on the Dremel would be enough, that's how little space I need for clearance .

 

[keysort]

Update: I fixed the problem with the trigger, the spring was bent out of shape. I put it back together and adjusted the trigger screw. Now the hammer works properly!

I looked more closely at the problem with cycling a round, and I can see that the carrier pushes the round straight down into the mag tube, jamming the carrier. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't there be no contact between the carrier and the round on the backwards stroke of the pump?

 

[kp321]

Sorry to be late with my reply, have been busy. I have also had problems with modern ammo in 97's. The rims on new shells seems to be larger than the old paper hulls. I have had to hone the rear ID of the magazine tube on several guns for them to be reliable with plastic hulls, especially reloads. Any burr on the rim would cause a hang up.

 

[a-k-a]

Are you sure this is not a overall lenght of the modern shell that is holding up proper battery?. I thought I had read somewhere that the 1897's were chambered about an 1/8" shorter than our modern shotguns. Which is quickly fixed by shortening your hulls and loading a little less in the shot colum.

Your trench gun is [email protected] looking Looking forward to more reports on it.

 

[keysort]

Another update...the cartridge guide stop screw did not solve my problem. I see what you're saying A-K-A about the length of the shell, but I don't think the overall length would effect this particular stoppage, since the carrier only comes in contact with the shell...I'll take a photo in the next day or so to illustrate the problem.