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I am a retired criminal defense attorney and a certified NRA instructor. Three things to consider in a situation of self defense. First you have to be prepared to survive the encounter. ( you have to know how to use your firearm). You don't warn, threat or point: you shoot to end the threat ( not kill-end the threat) because you are in the gravest extreme. Which is relevant if you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. Second, you have to act in ways to survive the legal system. If charged it may take a whole lot of money and time to be exonerated. And finally, you must be prepared to survive in your heart and soul knowing that you had no choice to survive the encounter than to act as you did. You did the right thing and had no other choice.
As some have said, you don't brandish a gun. Doing so often escalates to make a situation worse. In my state pointing a gun without an immediate danger of death or great bodily harm is a serious crime.
I do not know, or care how many of the posters have actually considered or encountered such a situation. Good CCW training at least informs us all to consider these situations very seriously.
Shooting someone for stepping on my lawn makes me glad that any who think this way do not live near me. Not only may you have to face a jury, but explain yourself to a higher authority after you die. These are serious matters requiring a great deal of thought and preparation beforehand.
I do not think the people on their porch brandishing guns are people I would want to know. Their apparent actions and attitudes are one reason we find more and more people trying to disarm us.
 

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I am a retired criminal defense attorney and a certified NRA instructor. Three things to consider in a situation of self defense. First you have to be prepared to survive the encounter. Which is relevant if you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. Second, you have to act in ways to survive the legal system. If charged it may take a whole lot of money and time to be exonerated. And finally, you must be prepared to survive in your heart and soul knowing that you had no choice to survive the encounter than to act as you did. You did the right thing and had no other choice.
As some have said, you don't brandish a gun. Doing so often escalates to make a situation worse. In my state pointing a gun without an immediate danger of death or great bodily harm is a serious crime.
I do not know, or care how many of the posters have actually considered or encountered such a situation. Good CCW training at least informs us all to consider these situations very seriously.
Shooting someone for stepping on my lawn makes me glad that any who think this way do not live near me. These are serious matters requiring a great deal of though and preparation beforehand.
I do not think the people on their porch brandishing guns are people I would want to know. Their apparent actions and attitudes are one reason we find more and more people trying to disarm us.
Brandishing is a crime.

IN Missouri, using lawful physical force to evict a trespasser is not a crime. Using lawful physical force in self defense is not a crime either.
 

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AR, I think you are confusing the concept of Real Property with Personal Property.



https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/real-property.asp

The protester had absolutely no right of use to any road, sidewalk, or anything past the gate of that community.

Missouri law is specific in that entering Real Property that is gated and posted is committing the crime of First Degree Trespass.





https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/missouri/mo-laws/missouri_laws_569-140

A gate that you must break down to enter combined with a large sign reading "No Trespassing" is the very definition of "likely to come to the attention of intruders".
I'm not confusing it with anything. I am trying to differentiate between two legal means of using a firearm for personal defense in MO: Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground

I am saying he can not use Castle Doctrine in this case because no one was on his private property. People were trespassing on private property, but it was not his and was owned by the board of trustees/HOA. A similar example is you can not use castle doctrine-type laws to justify shooting someone breaking into your neighbor's house because it's not your property (even though it is still someone's private property). Brandishing a weapon in this type of situation could also be considered a crime in this circumstance as well depending on if the person committing the crime was armed. Which in the case of the McClouskey's there has been no evidence that any of the protesters had deadly weapons.

As for Stand Your Ground, the wife repeatedly approached the protesters outside their home while they were still not on their property and pointed a weapon at them. Stand Your Ground is a purely defensive law saying you do not have to retreat if someone attacks you. I think that making a case that you were the one on the defensive while approaching people like the wife did would be impossible.

Again, this isn't about right vs wrong on a moral standpoint for me. Do you have the right to defend yourself and your home? Yeah you definitely should have that right, but going out and adding fuel to an already tense situation when these people had not actually done anything to them or the property they owned themselves puts them at risk for legal action.
 

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I'm not confusing it with anything. I am trying to differentiate between two legal means of using a firearm for personal defense in MO: Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground

I am saying he can not use Castle Doctrine in this case because no one was on his private property. People were trespassing on private property, but it was not his and was owned by the board of trustees/HOA. A similar example is you can not use castle doctrine-type laws to justify shooting someone breaking into your neighbor's house because it's not your property (even though it is still someone's private property). Brandishing a weapon in this type of situation could also be considered a crime in this circumstance as well depending on if the person committing the crime was armed. Which in the case of the McClouskey's there has been no evidence that any of the protesters had deadly weapons.

As for Stand Your Ground, the wife repeatedly approached the protesters outside their home while they were still not on their property and pointed a weapon at them. Stand Your Ground is a purely defensive law saying you do not have to retreat if someone attacks you. I think that making a case that you were the one on the defensive while approaching people like the wife did would be impossible.

Again, this isn't about right vs wrong on a moral standpoint for me. Do you have the right to defend yourself and your home? Yeah you definitely should have that right, but going out and adding fuel to an already tense situation when these people had not actually done anything to them or the property they owned themselves puts them at risk for legal action.

Factually they were on his private property. The St Louis DA is not even disputing that fact. Missouri law gives nowhere past that gate that it is NOT their private property. The Road, the sidewalk, the yard....it is ALL their private property. It is legally no different than a Corporate building is private property or any other private collective "WE". Missouri law it is all classified as private property with the same protections.

Yeah you definitely should have that right, but going out and adding fuel to an already tense situation when these people had not actually done anything to them or the property they owned themselves puts them at risk for legal action.
Not going out there puts them at risk of death inside a burning home.....
 

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I am a retired criminal defense attorney and a certified NRA instructor. Three things to consider in a situation of self defense. First you have to be prepared to survive the encounter. ( you have to know how to use your firearm). You don't warn, threat or point: you shoot to end the threat ( not kill-end the threat) because you are in the gravest extreme. Which is relevant if you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. Second, you have to act in ways to survive the legal system. If charged it may take a whole lot of money and time to be exonerated. And finally, you must be prepared to survive in your heart and soul knowing that you had no choice to survive the encounter than to act as you did. You did the right thing and had no other choice.
As some have said, you don't brandish a gun. Doing so often escalates to make a situation worse. In my state pointing a gun without an immediate danger of death or great bodily harm is a serious crime.
I do not know, or care how many of the posters have actually considered or encountered such a situation. Good CCW training at least informs us all to consider these situations very seriously.
Shooting someone for stepping on my lawn makes me glad that any who think this way do not live near me. Not only may you have to face a jury, but explain yourself to a higher authority after you die. These are serious matters requiring a great deal of thought and preparation beforehand.
I do not think the people on their porch brandishing guns are people I would want to know. Their apparent actions and attitudes are one reason we find more and more people trying to disarm us.
Yet another with common sense and training. Bravo!
 

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I am a retired criminal defense attorney and a certified NRA instructor. Three things to consider in a situation of self defense. First you have to be prepared to survive the encounter. ( you have to know how to use your firearm). You don't warn, threat or point: you shoot to end the threat ( not kill-end the threat) because you are in the gravest extreme. Which is relevant if you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. Second, you have to act in ways to survive the legal system. If charged it may take a whole lot of money and time to be exonerated. And finally, you must be prepared to survive in your heart and soul knowing that you had no choice to survive the encounter than to act as you did. You did the right thing and had no other choice.
As some have said, you don't brandish a gun. Doing so often escalates to make a situation worse. In my state pointing a gun without an immediate danger of death or great bodily harm is a serious crime.
I do not know, or care how many of the posters have actually considered or encountered such a situation. Good CCW training at least informs us all to consider these situations very seriously.
Shooting someone for stepping on my lawn makes me glad that any who think this way do not live near me. Not only may you have to face a jury, but explain yourself to a higher authority after you die. These are serious matters requiring a great deal of thought and preparation beforehand.
I do not think the people on their porch brandishing guns are people I would want to know. Their apparent actions and attitudes are one reason we find more and more people trying to disarm us.
common sense prevails over emotional knee jerk reactionaries :thumbsup:
 

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I have tried to make some legal as well as practical sense out of this event and after spending more than an hour going through the confusing and in some cases misleading information provided reached the following conclusion:

Had this happened to me and my family my very first step would have been to call the local and state police indicating my gate had already been broken by a mob and the possibility of an assault by this mob, whose intentions were unknown, was a real possibility. I would have also told the authorities I have armed myself and my family but have no intention of using force unless they tried to break down our door. The LAST thing i would had done would have been to go out in my yard armed and confrontational. At the very least it would have been easy for someone in the mob to take us both out. Just why law enforcement wasn't immediately there is beyond me. Did I miss something here?
Jim
 

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I have tried to make some legal as well as practical sense out of this event and after spending more than an hour going through the confusing and in some cases misleading information provided reached the following conclusion:

Had this happened to me and my family my very first step would have been to call the local and state police indicating my gate had already been broken by a mob and the possibility of an assault by this mob, whose intentions were unknown, was a real possibility. I would have also told the authorities I have armed myself and my family but have no intention of using force unless they tried to break down our door. The LAST thing i would had done would have been to go out in my yard armed and confrontational. At the very least it would have been easy for someone in the mob to take us both out. Just why law enforcement wasn't immediately there is beyond me. Did I miss something here?
Jim
If you really want the cops there , tell them you think you just heard a gun shot .
 

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I have tried to make some legal as well as practical sense out of this event and after spending more than an hour going through the confusing and in some cases misleading information provided reached the following conclusion:

Had this happened to me and my family my very first step would have been to call the local and state police indicating my gate had already been broken by a mob and the possibility of an assault by this mob, whose intentions were unknown, was a real possibility. I would have also told the authorities I have armed myself and my family but have no intention of using force unless they tried to break down our door. The LAST thing i would had done would have been to go out in my yard armed and confrontational. At the very least it would have been easy for someone in the mob to take us both out. Just why law enforcement wasn't immediately there is beyond me. Did I miss something here?
Jim
Yes you did. You have missed the violent, racism, and hate being pushed by the mob and supported by Democratic Party leadership wherever they are in power.

It certainly would have been easy to take them out. It is a violent mob. The Democrats have worked hand in hand with them to empower the violent mob and weaken US citizens right to defend themselves. The police have been suppressed and you cannot count on their responding due to the fact Democrats in their elected position are simply not doing their jobs.

We have had activist mayors in two cities give up two police precincts, something unheard of in the last century in the United States because those in elected leadership want the violence. The mayor of New York has reduced his Police force and eliminated his violent crimes section. We have an activist Prosecutor in St Louis and scores of activist Judges handing down ruling that make little sense and refusing to comply with a Higher Courts instructions.

We have had hundreds of innocents die due to Police suppression. Murders have gone up 300%. There will be more innocents dying due to the inaction and inability of the Democrats to condemn the violence. They only condemn it when someone stands up to the mob. They did the same thing in Seattle when business owner was robbed, defended his family, and the mob came in order to take back their thief.

Major U.S. cities, gripped with crisis, now face spike in deadly shootings, including of children
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/america-spike-gun-violence/2020/07/06/15508ac8-bfa0-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html

It is the culmination of the violence being pushed by a Political Party that is so desperate to win an election they are willing to attack our basic security and allied with Marxist trained revolutionaries to do so. The Democratic Party has compromised the social contract of the United States for millions of our citizens by denying the security that if you are in trouble, help will be on the way.

There will be another incident like this couple in St Louis.

This movement is Marxist based revolution and we are seeing many of the same tactics that got George Soros "Open Society" NGO kicked out of Eastern Europe for subverting their Democracies.

Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’
https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

SOROS YEARNS – SO AMERICA BURNS
None of this is playing out in Republican-run cities – not even one.
As one peaceful protester noted, Spontaneous riots broke out in 38 cities in US with ‘spontaneously’ identical shirts, masks, signs and chants.” Public officials in Minneapolis reported “an estimated 3/4 of those arrested are not from here.”
https://richardsonpost.com/howellwoltz/17461/soros-yearns-so-america-burns/


And it is being assisted by our enemies overseas who would love for us to devolve into Civil War.

10,800 Assault Weapons Parts Seized by CBP in Louisville
At the Express Consignment Operations hubs in Louisville U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers seized a shipment from China that contained over 10,000 Assault Weapons parts being smuggled into the country.
Type 95 Assault Rifles, disassembled.

china weapons.jpg

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/10800-assault-weapons-parts-seized-cbp-louisville#:~:text=LOUISVILLE, Ky—At the Express,being smuggled into the country.

In St. Louis, Seattle and Louisville, Police Find Guns Around Protests
There are firefights now at the "peaceful" protests.

Two shootings around protests in Louisville and Seattle over the weekend that were met by people in the crowds returning fire are showing a dynamic to the protests that has been caught on video and circulated on social media.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-st-louis-seattle-and-louisville-police-find-guns-around-protests/ar-BB1681xs#image=1



This isn't just a couple reacting to some mere trespasser in their yard.
 

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I'm 60, and I've had a pretty varied set of life experiences. I have a military and security history, I've done a lot of world travel, I teach history, and I would call myself a pretty pro 2A gun nut/collector/shooter Republican. But in this particular case, if I was on the grand jury, the actions of the couple in question would surely not survive "the reasonable man standard", and I would vote to indict. Not smart or well-trained people.
Hey...just sayin'...
 

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Whereas I would not and I would be supported by a plethora of case law precedent.
 

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And now after our President’s comments the prosecutor is getting death threats:

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Missouri-governor-says-Trump-is-getting-15409657.php
Your comment is intentionally misleading, implying that the presidents comments are the cause of her receiving death threats. The lady states herself that she was getting death threats even before she took office. Neither she nor you provide any evidence that any threats she has received are in any way related to the Presidents comments. I am not a fan of Trump, but your post simply exposes your political bias, inappropriate for a moderator when this forum is suppose to focus on RKBA.
 

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You would be thinking wrong. They were in their yard.
Interesting. I’ve looked for evidence the protestors were in their yard but all I can find is video showing they were on the street/sidewalk. Could you post your proof? It’s also been questioned whether the protestors broke through the gate so if you have definitive proof of that too I’d find it interesting. And the lawyers claim the protestors were armed - nobody seems able to verify that but I bet you can.
 

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Yes you did. You have missed the violent, racism, and hate being pushed by the mob and supported by Democratic Party leadership wherever they are in power.

It certainly would have been easy to take them out. It is a violent mob. The Democrats have worked hand in hand with them to empower the violent mob and weaken US citizens right to defend themselves. The police have been suppressed and you cannot count on their responding due to the fact Democrats in their elected position are simply not doing their jobs.

We have had activist mayors in two cities give up two police precincts, something unheard of in the last century in the United States because those in elected leadership want the violence. The mayor of New York has reduced his Police force and eliminated his violent crimes section. We have an activist Prosecutor in St Louis and scores of activist Judges handing down ruling that make little sense and refusing to comply with a Higher Courts instructions.

We have had hundreds of innocents die due to Police suppression. Murders have gone up 300%. There will be more innocents dying due to the inaction and inability of the Democrats to condemn the violence. They only condemn it when someone stands up to the mob. They did the same thing in Seattle when business owner was robbed, defended his family, and the mob came in order to take back their thief.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/america-spike-gun-violence/2020/07/06/15508ac8-bfa0-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html

It is the culmination of the violence being pushed by a Political Party that is so desperate to win an election they are willing to attack our basic security and allied with Marxist trained revolutionaries to do so. The Democratic Party has compromised the social contract of the United States for millions of our citizens by denying the security that if you are in trouble, help will be on the way.

There will be another incident like this couple in St Louis.

This movement is Marxist based revolution and we are seeing many of the same tactics that got George Soros "Open Society" NGO kicked out of Eastern Europe for subverting their Democracies.



https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/







https://richardsonpost.com/howellwoltz/17461/soros-yearns-so-america-burns/


And it is being assisted by our enemies overseas who would love for us to devolve into Civil War.





Type 95 Assault Rifles, disassembled.

View attachment 3691831

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/10800-assault-weapons-parts-seized-cbp-louisville#:~:text=LOUISVILLE, Ky—At the Express,being smuggled into the country.



There are firefights now at the "peaceful" protests.



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-st-louis-seattle-and-louisville-police-find-guns-around-protests/ar-BB1681xs#image=1



This isn't just a couple reacting to some mere trespasser in their yard.
Nothing wrong with disassembled gun parts. Completely legal,depends what parts are in there, the lowers. As a matter of fact I have redneck friends and liberal friends who build them all the time. "it is completely legal under federal law to buy an 80% lower for personal use under the GCA of 1968"

vhttps://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-atfs-definition-of-an-ar-15-lower-as-a-firearm-is-in-serious-trouble/
 
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