[bandook]

I was cleaning my 1907/15 Berthier the other day and I saw (and remembered) that an N was not stamped on the receiver. I have two M1886/93s that are missing it to. I have seen quite a few others for sale over the years that have no N. I have never, however, seen one of the 1927 rebuilt Berthier carbines without an N, though they may exist for all I know.
My assumption is that the rifles without the N were not in French military stores when the new cartridge loading was introduced ca. 1932.
Now perhaps a very few were vet bring backs after the first world war. Lots were captured by the Germans during the first world war, but were they not generally stamped with German property marks? In any case, the French would have most likely taken them back after the armistice if they found them.
The normal luck of the draw would not end up with my small collection having three rifles in decent condition that were vet bringbacks, and there are no capture marks on mine either.
I know France sent some to Poland during the early twenties, but I believe those were marked too.
Were there significant surplus sales of French 8mm rifles before 1932? I doubt it, as I have even seen pictures of an 8mm converted Gras with the N on the receiver.
Did France lend or give a large number of rifles to allies during World War One (or in the 1920's), which were then not returned and thus did not get the "N".
Just curious....

 

[1886lebel]

Your assumption is correct in that the rifles without the N were not in French military stores when the new cartridge loading was introduced in a 1932 and beyond.
Some of these were bring-backs after WWI, some sold/loaned/leased to other nations such as Poland, Serbia and Russia and never got this modification.

Patrick

 

[Bohanan66]

OK...so why did so many Berthiers escape being import marked?

 

[Frenchy24RI]

Bohanan,

I have a Mle 16/27 that WAS converted to the 'N' status.
It was a VN GI bringback that had a flimsy yellow web sling SEWN to it!!!
Sadly, I cut it off, and was lost during a move, many years ago!

Ron

 

[Jungles]

OK...so why did so many Berthiers escape being import marked?

Import marks are fairly recent additions, in the grand scheme of things. I'd venture to guess that most of the Berthiers which have made it in to the US did so before they were required.
Back when I was part owner of a gun shop, specializing in military surplus firearms, during the '70's and into the mid-'80's, import marks on any weapon - French, Russian, British, German, you name it - were almost unheard of.

 

[bandook]

Do any photos exist of non-French post WW1 soldiers with Berthiers or M1886/93's? I have not seen any, but of course I am not sure where to look.

 

[1886lebel]

In the latest issue of Shotgun News March 5, 2012, Krag (Paul Scarlatta) posted a few of these photos of non-French troops with Berthiers

Patrick

 

[Bohanan66]

I've heard that Sears, Roebuck and Bannerman imported obsolete European milsurp rifles before WW I. I think that explains the abundance of Swiss and Italian Vetterlis and Dutch Beaumonts, many of which were sporterized. But they are black powder rifles. I just didn't think that post-war importation occurred on a similar scale. Importers would have advertized so I suppose there's old newspaper and catalogues showing who was importing and what the prices were. I'd be curious to know but too lazy to do the research.