[deacon]

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration told Congress on Friday of plans to sell Iraq about 400 million rounds of small arms ammunition, 170,000 grenades, demolition explosives and other military gear and services valued at up to $508 million.

The Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said the Iraqi government had asked for up to 100 million rounds of both M855 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammunition for small arms, as well as about 200 million other bullets.

"This proposed sale directly supports the Iraqi government and serves the interests of the Iraqi people and the U.S., as well as offering hope for a more stable and peaceful Middle East," said the agency that handles government-to-government arms sales.

The package would help Iraqi forces "sustain themselves in their efforts to bring stability to the country and prevent overflow of unrest into neighboring countries," a statement said.

In a previous proposed sale to Iraq, the Pentagon said on December 7 it would supply trucks, trailers and related equipment valued at up to $463 million. It said that would support a plan by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki to train and equip an extra 30,000 Iraqi troops. The strengthened Iraqi force is aimed at speeding up the departure of U.S. troops who ousted President Saddam Hussein in 2003.

The notice of a proposed sale is required by law. Congress has the power to reject it. The deal could be worth up to $508 million if all options are exercised.

As part of the proposed package, the United States would sell 170,000 40mm HEDP grenades, 80,000 C-4 1-1/4 pound plastic explosive packets and 4.2 million feet of detonating cord.

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

The administration, in a separate notice to lawmakers, proposed to sell to Turkey Raytheon Co.-built AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and related gear valued at up to $71 million if all options are exercised.



© Reuters2007All rights reserved

 

[rewster]

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration told Congress on Friday of plans to sell Iraq about 400 million rounds of small arms ammunition, 170,000 grenades, demolition explosives and other military gear and services valued at up to $508 million.

The Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said the Iraqi government had asked for up to 100 million rounds of both M855 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammunition for small arms, as well as about 200 million other bullets.

"This proposed sale directly supports the Iraqi government and serves the interests of the Iraqi people and the U.S., as well as offering hope for a more stable and peaceful Middle East," said the agency that handles government-to-government arms sales.

The package would help Iraqi forces "sustain themselves in their efforts to bring stability to the country and prevent overflow of unrest into neighboring countries," a statement said.

In a previous proposed sale to Iraq, the Pentagon said on December 7 it would supply trucks, trailers and related equipment valued at up to $463 million. It said that would support a plan by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki to train and equip an extra 30,000 Iraqi troops. The strengthened Iraqi force is aimed at speeding up the departure of U.S. troops who ousted President Saddam Hussein in 2003.

The notice of a proposed sale is required by law. Congress has the power to reject it. The deal could be worth up to $508 million if all options are exercised.

As part of the proposed package, the United States would sell 170,000 40mm HEDP grenades, 80,000 C-4 1-1/4 pound plastic explosive packets and 4.2 million feet of detonating cord.

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

The administration, in a separate notice to lawmakers, proposed to sell to Turkey Raytheon Co.-built AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and related gear valued at up to $71 million if all options are exercised.



© Reuters2007All rights reserved

Not really a bad idea. With all that ammo, they'll have plenty to shoot at each other after we leave.

regards....roger

 

[North Bender]

I noticed that grenades were starting to dry up too ...

 

[Spetznatz]

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

Like they really need to get fuel from us.

 

[Vestus]

I guess the note on ClassicArms was right.

 

[ThreeJs]

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

Why are we selling them fuel?

 

[scooter222]

Why are we selling them fuel?

To make money so we can buy barrels of crude from them at inflated prices silly.

 

[Bill_in_VA]

Dan Shea (of Long Mountain Outfitters) also had a pretty good write-up he posted over on subguns the other day that covers this topic quite well and is worth reading. Here's what he wrote:

I have been overseas, just got back in. I tried to keep up with what people are talking about, but it's tough to do sometimes... one thing I get a lot of email about, is ammo prices. Lot's of accusations towards importers and mfgs raising prices etc... I thought I might toss in a couple of insights.

1- The war is sucking up all of the standard combat calibers, at high prices. This isn't really hot news, we've brought this up before, but it is undeniable. No one wants to sell 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 5.56x45, 7.62x54R, 9mm, .50BMG, etc to the surplus civilian market if they can sell at high price to the combatants.

2- The communist Chinese are sucking up all the raw materials in the world.. including lead, copper, zinc, brass, steel, etc. This is all being used in fueling their superhot economic miracle (Which relies on slave labor). (The other billion person economy, India, is right on their heels on raw material use) US defense companies can not deal with Chinese ammo, but UK can, so there is Chinese ammo sliding into the fight on both sides in huge amounts- to our side from the UK, to the other from China to Iran etc. Raw material prices for ammo are very high, changing almost daily for the worse. Even odd calibers are much higher now due to raw material costs. Besides, why run your presses on odd calibers at a low price, when you can concentrate on the mil market...

3- Good US production is out 3 years on mil contract. Every event like this I have personally seen since Vietnam, and from studying WWI, WWII etc, has been that the military draws down and commandeers all production, presses are fired up all over, and then when the shooting stops, there is an over run and a glut on the market, lots of surplus. I am not so confident right now- lots of the younger generation call this "The Long War" but of course they don't remember Nam was 15 years just for us and overflowed another five in retribution and effect and there were the French before us, WWII was five years of our combat involvement, but about 25 years for everyone else, from China to Korea... and the Cold War spanned ? years. Neither here nor there, but my take is that this is much longer in duration than is being credited, and the effect on ammunition is there. This won't be a "Long war" because of George Bush, it has been going on against us for 20 years already, and we have another 10-15 coming at us no matter what.

4- Politics... if the Democrats get full control, start a witch hunt among the previous administration and the contractors (Note Haliburton's HQ and CEO moved to Dubai, and Blackwater etc are clearly prime targets for the witch hunt), they will weaken us while the world burns, just like last time in Nam=- Cambodia etc. Millions will die- combat will continue even without our presence, and will intensify- sucking up more ammo on the world market. Surplus supplies that I see are very low now, a few piles here and there, but if it wasn't bought ten years ago and the war won't use it, there's usually a reason. I suspect any older ammo that has been on the market forever, as having a problem. Ammo is a priority for the Democrats to stop coming in, and restrict if possible. So, this will not help.

5- The recent events concerning the Euro. International money people do a lot of manipulation by "Allusion"... they allude to something with a certain type of signal. Allen Greenspan was well known for being the Angel of Death with his asides. Last week, he "Noted" that the Euro was fast replacing the Dollar as the international reserve currency. On no more strength than that (Both the dollar and the euro are fiat currencies, just print as much as you like and pretend it has the same value) the Euro has gone to 1.41 dollars per Euro. The effect of this is monumental. Most Europeans, and in fact most people around the world, do not want dollars now. When I am negotiating on ammo or guns, they insist on Euro, I insist on Dollars. They want Euros and will sell outside of the US whenever they can. This means our imports cost much more automatically. Even my small gov contracts with Europeans are being written with a currency adj clause, and that doesn't work- the US Gov won't "Adjust" on smaller contracts under a mil. International dealers/importers are operating at their peril right now, and it is damn hard to get a buy. When the Euro started at .78 dollars per euro, the dollar was strong and things were OK... when it went up 40%, it put almost every importer from Spain, Italy, Greece, etc out of the picture. That was five years back and only at parity a buck for a euro. Imagine now that the rate is almost double, what that does for destroying our buying power.

The world isn't looking at the US market as a good place to sell right now, they want to buy from us because their money goes further. (If you don't get this, think in terms of where you want to vacation.. a place where it costs a lot, or a place where your dollar buys you more) That means, on ammo surplus, etc, they look for alternatives first. The Germans are basically cutting ties economically with the US all the time now, and Russia's Valery Putin has told us to pound sand more than once recently (As I expected).... the only good thing from that is that when Russia signed the Voluntary Restraint Agreement, the Clintons couldn't stop vast stockpiles of weapons and ammo from coming from Russia to the US so they told the Russians- you voluntarily don't sell ammo and guns to US importers, and we'll give you foreign aid.... if Putin trashes that, we should have Russian SKS, and lots of ammo available. Then again, that ammo would be available for US contractors in the fight, so it would probably go there first and be high priced.... so what came here might not be too cheap.

I am running into a similar situation that occured in the early 1990s, when Eastern Europe was opening up more... you'd walk in and negotiate and the first offer from the seller would now be within ten percent of the retail price in Shotgun News. There were even copies of SGN visible in most facilities. They had no understanding of the costs involved, shipping, adv, overhead, and 11% FET, let alone "Profit" so it took a few years of dumb American "Investors" paying too much and having to dump at a loss, then no buyers willing to pay their prices, before surplus ammo got more interesting here.

This is all just my two cents and observation, I thought that some of the guys on the sites I like to visit might find the above interesting and illuminating. Good for discussion.

Then to the "Buy or not" thing.. stockpile or not. Well, that's personal. Have you got extra money? Do you want to guarantee your ammo supply? Then buy a bunch. Other than that, how else do you make decisions... when I was young I used to stretch my ammo budget by using 22lr suppressed guns and machine guns, and shooting a little on the full size MGs when the budget got tight. I still wanted to shoot, but the kids needed shoes, groceries, etc, so plinking with 22s was beaucoup fun. Today, if my ammo piles are low and I want to shoot, out come the semis and the bolt actions, the sniper rifles, and.... yes, the 22s. When my ammo piles are high, I will put the trigger down to prevent post-ammo let-down. I see that CMP is selling 30-06 cheap again... I suggest going for that and getting your 1919A4s into 06. I know, we all went to other calibers for cheapness, but that is the beauty of an A4... whatever is available, you can use.

Seriously, there are market forces at work right now that bode ill towards cheap ammo in the immediate future. I always advocate common sense, spend what you can afford to... what diff does it make if you buy 20k rounds at .12 per, and in five years you can buy it again at .10..... but what diff does it make if in five years you have to pay .45? I know that we had some .gov customers freaking at .90 per on .308, but we're making the same margin as before in the .50 range. It's raw material, supply and demand, and time on target... if you want to jump the 3 year line, people want more money. Plain and simple.

So, if you factor my observations into your own common sense, maybe this well help a bit in understanding what is going on out there.

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=623774

 

[zampilot]

That outta hold them til we get out. And maybe for a while when Mixedmut Almonddine comes in for revenge!

 

[Ihatemacs]

Why are we selling them fuel?

Because they don't have any bullets to protect their refineries apparantly.

 

[tedley2]

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration told Congress on Friday of plans to sell Iraq about 400 million rounds of small arms ammunition, 170,000 grenades, demolition explosives and other military gear and services valued at up to $508 million.

The Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said the Iraqi government had asked for up to 100 million rounds of both M855 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammunition for small arms, as well as about 200 million other bullets."This proposed sale directly supports the Iraqi government and serves the interests of the Iraqi people and the U.S., as well as offering hope for a more stable and peaceful Middle East," said the agency that handles government-to-government arms sales.

The package would help Iraqi forces "sustain themselves in their efforts to bring stability to the country and prevent overflow of unrest into neighboring countries," a statement said.

In a previous proposed sale to Iraq, the Pentagon said on December 7 it would supply trucks, trailers and related equipment valued at up to $463 million. It said that would support a plan by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki to train and equip an extra 30,000 Iraqi troops. The strengthened Iraqi force is aimed at speeding up the departure of U.S. troops who ousted President Saddam Hussein in 2003.

The notice of a proposed sale is required by law. Congress has the power to reject it. The deal could be worth up to $508 million if all options are exercised.

As part of the proposed package, the United States would sell 170,000 40mm HEDP grenades, 80,000 C-4 1-1/4 pound plastic explosive packets and 4.2 million feet of detonating cord.

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

The administration, in a separate notice to lawmakers, proposed to sell to Turkey Raytheon Co.-built AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and related gear valued at up to $71 million if all options are exercised.



© Reuters2007All rights reserved

Sort of wonder why selling C4 to them is such a good idea, as it may end up in the hands of the wrong people. And as for the fuel, look at how much we're paying at the pump now. It just about rivals what we're paying for ammo with Bush funny money.

 

[MikeH1]

Why are we selling them fuel?

I believe that's what we are getting for payment for the goods. Why would they buy all those petro products from us when they have it already?

 

[cpw]

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

Like they really need to get fuel from us.

Do they have the capcity to do the refining ???

 

[Shyquestor]

The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline, the statement said.

Like they really need to get fuel from us.

John, they really can't make it (refine it) all they can do is pump crude and ship it to refineries out of country.

I'm pretty sure the currency they will pay for this all will be in crude shipments to the US oil "strategic" reserves, while we taxpayers footing the hundreds of billions for the "war" won't see a penny of payback.

 

[ErsatzBayonet]

Yeah, that's what the region needs for stability.... more guns!
We blow up their bridges... pay to fix them.... blow up their buildings... pay to fix em... blow up their arms caches... SURE we'll sell you more arms. I'm getting real tired of The MIC Complex. We're nothing but a nation of services and bomb makers. (overgeneralization)

 

[Shyquestor]

Yeah, that's what the region needs for stability.... more guns!
We blow up their bridges... pay to fix them.... blow up their buildings... pay to fix em... blow up their arms caches... SURE we'll sell you more arms. I'm getting real tired of The MIC Complex. We're nothing but a nation of services and bomb makers. (overgeneralization)

Ever hear of the MacArthur Plan in Japan or the Marshall Plan in Germany? Only thing different is the rearmament part.

 

[ErsatzBayonet]

Ever hear of the MacArthur Plan in Japan or the Marshall Plan in Germany? Only thing different is the rearmament part.

Quite a few differences, but I'll cut to the two largest:

1. Violence on a large scale had ended in Germany and Japan
2. Germany and Japan were not made up of religious groups that DESPISED each other and acted violently on that.

 

[AlamoCity]

"The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline..."

Yep, there you have it - war for oil! Those cooky libs were right!!

I wonder if the 7.62 ammo that was mentioned is that new US production? Or are they actually buying surplus from Europe and sending it to the Mid east?

Do we need to send instructions on how to properly open the tins so that you can save the lid?
How about the spiffy water and vinegar solution for immediate post-fire fight bore clean up with that dirty corrosive ammo!

I can just see it now, hundreds of new gunboards members, location: Iraq, asking how to clean their bore after shooting 'surp ammo! And then arguing with eachother about how accurate it is!!

T

 

[Shyquestor]

"The deal would also involve up to 75 million gallons (341 million liters) of diesel, 2.9 million gallons (13 million liters) of JP-8 jet fuel and 56.4 million gallons (256 million liters) of motor gasoline..."

Yep, there you have it - war for oil! Those cooky libs were right!!

I wonder if the 7.62 ammo that was mentioned is that new US production? Or are they actually buying surplus from Europe and sending it to the Mid east?

Do we need to send instructions on how to properly open the tins so that you can save the lid?
How about the spiffy water and vinegar solution for immediate post-fire fight bore clean up with that dirty corrosive ammo!

I can just see it now, hundreds of new gunboards members, location: Iraq, asking how to clean their bore after shooting 'surp ammo! And then arguing with eachother about how accurate it is!!

T

I would think the 7.62 was the NATO flavor, not our brand.

 

[Misfire99]

I find you guys so unbelievably dumb. It doesn't matter if you are right winged or left. All you really care about is yourselves and how much a gallon of gas costs or how much your plinking rounds cost. How soon you forget the thousands of dead we have from one strike at the US. I especially found Dan Shea's views to be so far up a dark place that it's a lump in his throat. I have lived in China and the booming economy is not from slave labor. They have a huge work force and in many ways they are more free then we are.

We are in a very different kind of war then anybody has ever fought before. It is an under ground war. I think our President did exactly the right thing taking over Iraq. It cut the three main suppliers for the soldiers of this new war right in two. And now I hear there is talk about building bases on the Iraq side of the Iran border. This is very good news. If you don't think that Iran and Syria are our main enemies you aren't paying attention. But I guess you didn't have to think about it because your little minds can't see how it effects the cost of your ammo or the cost of your gas.

America is no longer a great country because the number of great Americans is decreasing so rapidly.