[Watson99]

I agree, the AR does make more sense for the "just in case" rifle here. I almost bought one the other day, a LGS had a S&W-made carbine version for $500 with some kind of mall ninja sighting device bolted on top of it. Unlike x39, .223 ammo is everywhere now, but I already have a good stash of Norinco 7.62x39 silver box stuff, even though I haven't had anything in this caliber for years. So, while I was doing some reading on the AR somebody bought it.... As far as SKS goes, I prefer the Chinese version with milled TG and spike bayonet. Long ago, when I was into the Russian firearms and SKS could be had for around two bills, I had plenty of them to compare one against the other. On average I found the Chinese to be more accurate, slimmer, lighter and it didn't have that annoying habit of doubling the shots that the Russians seem to have (yes, I always cleaned the FP channel). Nowadays, you'd be lucky to find a good SKS for under $600, but I'd still buy one over an AR. I just don't like a free-floating bolt handle. I used to be into FN-FAL rifles and gave up on them for that very reason.

 

[barnetmill]

I agree, the AR does make more sense for the "just in case" rifle here. I almost bought one the other day, a LGS had a S&W-made carbine version for $500 with some kind of mall ninja sighting device bolted on top of it. Unlike x39, .223 ammo is everywhere now, but I already have a good stash of Norinco 7.62x39 silver box stuff, even though I haven't had anything in this caliber for years. So, while I was doing some reading on the AR somebody bought it.... As far as SKS goes, I prefer the Chinese version with milled TG and spike bayonet. Long ago, when I was into the Russian firearms and SKS could be had for around two bills, I had plenty of them to compare one against the other. On average I found the Chinese to be more accurate, slimmer, lighter and it didn't have that annoying habit of doubling the shots that the Russians seem to have (yes, I always cleaned the FP channel). Nowadays, you'd be lucky to find a good SKS for under $600, but I'd still buy one over an AR. I just don't like a free-floating bolt handle. I used to be into FN-FAL rifles and gave up on them for that very reason.

I have an AR in 7.62x39 since I have bit of that ammo and other rifles for it. One can just always find x39, but maybe not at the cheaper pricing of yesterday.

 

[Watson99]

There you go, Barnet. You've got it all covered. Personally I think for a basic "just in case" scenario having a set up that resembles as close as possible what your Military uses makes more sense than some foreign and exotic calibers. So, here it would be an AR, Beretta 92 and something in 12 ga. I know that people look down on the Beretta, but I think it's a good pistol. A little outdated, a little on a fat side and large, but reliable, super smooth, accurate and inexpensive. I really like the 92s and 92sb versions, especially the commercial ones. The quality is top notch, 15 rd capacity and they still have that "classy retro" look to them. They are harder to find than the current crop of Italian police surplus that are for sale everywhere and usually more expensive.

 

[barnetmill]

There you go, Barnet. You've got it all covered. Personally I think for a basic "just in case" scenario having a set up that resembles as close as possible what your Military uses makes more sense than some foreign and exotic calibers. So, here it would be an AR, Beretta 92 and something in 12 ga. I know that people look down on the Beretta, but I think it's a good pistol. A little outdated, a little on a fat side and large, but reliable, super smooth, accurate and inexpensive. I really like the 92s and 92sb versions, especially the commercial ones. The quality is top notch, 15 rd capacity and they still have that "classy retro" look to them. They are harder to find than the current crop of Italian police surplus that are for sale everywhere and usually more expensive.

I think that the Beretta 92 is an excellent pistol; those with hands on experience in the US military often like them very much. I have absolutely no experience with them.
Relative to parts, magazine, and just about every after market thingy one could dream of the Gen 3 glock is my choice. The major downside of the Gen 3 system is a heavy sluggish inconsistent factory trigger pull. Now that I have optics on mine, the trigger pull is my major detriment to accuracy. Versions of the glock system can be had in 22, 380, 9mm, .357 sig, 40, 10mm and .45 ACP and maybe GAP.

 

[Watson99]

Well, well, well... Lookie what we have here... A firearm that Mr.Barnetmill self admittedly has no experience with. Just kidding, Mon Ami, I've always valued your response on just about any subject here on GB. I happen to be a fan of the Beretta-made handguns. Out of the 92 series my absolute favorite is 92s model. Straight front strap, no firing pin safety, round trigger guard, non-ambi safety and a perfect compromise between top and heel mag release, just like the one found on Astra 600. If you ever come across a commercial version of 92s, give it a shot. Usually it will not have any import marks at all, or will be stamped with "Berben Corporation N.Y." Now, good old Glocks... Who doesn't have one, right? My favorite is a Model 19 Gen 2. My wife has one and it's been great and 100% reliable with everything. All I did is replace the serrated trigger with a smooth one from Gen 3 and did some work to lighten the t/pull a little. It already came with a nice set of Novaks instead of cheesy factory plastic sights. Another handgun I am very impressed with is a Gen 2 Sig P365. Amazing little pistol, very accurate and compact. My wife's favorite.

 

[reiver1]

The Beretta 92 was fine for the average soldier, but SF/CAG had issues with them when they were run hard.... they did not hold up. They went to another sidearm.

 

[Watson99]

That is true, but we are looking at a classic pistol here that can be pressed into the SHTF situation if needed. Model 92s that is... Think of something in the line of a Luger, Radom, Hi-Power or Walther P.38. I would not get a 92F or FS, they don't have the feel or the looks of the earlier model. What other vintage 9x19 full size double action, double stack handgun would fulfill this role? The only other two I can think of are: pre-B CZ-75 and W.German SIG 226. I've had several of both and much prefer the Beretta to both of them. That's why I specifically mentioned the commercial 92s model. Not only it's the best looking out of all 92 series (well, not counting the step slide ones, of course), but also there is a good chance that it hasn't been shot the crap out of with NATO ammo by the crazy Italians. On the side note, though... Some of the early 92 models were made in Brazil (non-Taurus marked) and are not in the same league with the real ones. The real Italian-made commercial export pistols will have a serial number starting with B and ending with Z, also there will be a two-letter code on the trigger guard denoting the manufacture date. They were only made for a few years and unlike the police/military surplus are somewhat uncommon.

 

[Nick]

Now, good old Glocks... Who doesn't have one, right?

Off on a tangent. I don't have a Block...er, Glock.

But I have its daddy, the original "Glock safety action", where the striker is only half-cocked after cycling the action.

 

[sksguide]

Off on a tangent. I don't have a Block...er, Glock.

But I have its daddy, the original "Glock safety action", where the striker is only half-cocked after cycling the action.

View attachment 3991709

To my amazement lver Johnson .38 safety hammerless break tops around 1900 used what Glock adopted
The trigger has a built in safety which Glock incorporates the same way
Who knew!

 

[Watson99]

Off on a tangent. I don't have a Block...er, Glock.

But I have its daddy, the original "Glock safety action", where the striker is only half-cocked after cycling the action.

View attachment 3991709

And finally.... On page #8 this thread morphed into something interesting... Which one is it, Nick? Austrian or Hungarian? I am getting a little rusty on those, can't tell by the serial number alone any more. I had both. 1907 Roth is one of the most beautifully machined pistols I've ever encountered.

 

[Watson99]

Edited

 

[reiver1]

Back to AK. Bolt comparison - AK, M1 Garand, SVT-40, G43.

View attachment 3990529

Reading Kalashnikovs book annotated by his daughter Elena this is mentioned by him on numerous occasions when he was working on the AK variant and some earlier designs. He admired the Garand and the rotating bolt and, he says, he used it ... he makes no bones about it. Smart move I'd say but that does not mean he is not the inventor of the rifle for stealing others' ideas and incorporating them in another 'whole'.
I cannot see any Soviet propaganda purpose (post war) in having some Senior Sergeant credited with something he did not build....especially one who came from a Kulak family (Kalashnik's before they Russianized it with the kov) and was sent to the Gulag at one point.
He, Kalashnikov, also gave due credit to the teams he worked with (named those who were especially talented) and the inspiration he got from numerous weapons systems.
What verified or new source material leads others to believe otherwise...yes, I've read the thread. I just do not see anything that is definitive.

 

[barnetmill]

Reading Kalashnikovs book annotated by his daughter Elena this is mentioned by him on numerous occasions when he was working on the AK variant and some earlier designs. He admired the Garand and the rotating bolt and, he says, he used it ... he makes no bones about it. Smart move I'd say but that does not mean he is not the inventor of the rifle for stealing others' ideas and incorporating them in another 'whole'.
I cannot see any Soviet propaganda purpose (post war) in having some Senior Sergeant credited with something he did not build....especially one who came from a Kulak family (Kalashnik's before they Russianized it with the kov) and was sent to the Gulag at one point.
He, Kalashnikov, also gave due credit to the teams he worked with (named those who were especially talented) and the inspiration he got from numerous weapons systems.
What verified or new source material leads others to believe otherwise...yes, I've read the thread. I just do not see anything that is definitive.

Why was it necessary to Russianize the family name? he was born east of the Urals it seems and so it is not clear if he was of slavic origin. So exactly what was it with the family name. It appears that the family while poor must of had some land and so got designated as Kulaks and were exiled.

Official background family information

Kalashnikov was born in the village of Kurya,[1] in present-day Altai Krai, Russia, as the seventeenth child of the 19 children[5] of Aleksandra Frolovna Kalashnikova (née Kaverina) and Timofey Aleksandrovich Kalashnikov, who were peasants.[5] In 1930, his father and most of his family had their properties confiscated and were deported as kulaks to the village of Nizhnyaya Mokhovaya, Tomsk Oblast.[6][7] In his youth, Mikhail suffered from various illnesses and was on the verge of death at age six.[3] He was attracted to all kinds of machinery,[6] but also wrote poetry, dreaming of becoming a poet.[8] He went on to write six books and continued to write poetry all of his life.[7][9] After deportation to Tomsk Oblast, his family had to combine farming with hunting, and thus Mikhail frequently used his father's rifle in his teens. Kalashnikov continued hunting into his 90s.[3]

 

[reiver1]

Why was it necessary to Russianize the family name? he was born east of the Urals it seems and so it is not clear if he was of slavic origin. So exactly what was it with the family name. It appears that the family while poor must of had some land and so got designated as Kulaks and were exiled.

Official background family information

I am not sure of the date but they did this during the pogroms, folks did whatever they could to not be 'named' on a list for deportation. His family was designated 'Kulaks' on the second or 3rd round of deportations from their village and exiled to Siberia.
Kulaks simply had more livestock than a neighbor,,,there were 3 communist classes very poor, poor, and Kulaks who were actually poor but had animals. When a Kulak family was deported the animals then belonged to the commune/State. About 10 million Ukrainians starved to death during this period when their animals and stored grain was 'liberated' by the State.
Kalashnikov forged papers and escaped from the deportation and hid this background for decades.
My point is.... there were many designers competing for the assault weapons 'prize' thru rounds of tests and retests. If the Soviet intent was to create something by a team and designate one man as designer for propaganda purposes Kalashnikov would be a poor choice...Stalin was still in power and the pogroms were on again post war.

 

[barnetmill]

I am not sure of the date but they did this during the pogroms, folks did whatever they could to not be 'named' on a list for deportation. His family was designated 'Kulaks' on the second or 3rd round of deportations from their village and exiled to Siberia.
Kulaks simply had more livestock than a neighbor,,,there were 3 communist classes very poor, poor, and Kulaks who were actually poor but had animals. When a Kulak family was deported the animals then belonged to the commune/State. About 10 million Ukrainians starved to death during this period when their animals and stored grain was 'liberated' by the State.
Kalashnikov forged papers and escaped from the deportation and hid this background for decades.
My point is.... there were many designers competing for the assault weapons 'prize' thru rounds of tests and retests. If the Soviet intent was to create something by a team and designate one man as designer for propaganda purposes Kalashnikov would be a poor choice...Stalin was still in power and the pogroms were on again post war.

I am somewhat confused by your use of pogroms. It is normally related to attacks on jews and perhaps other ethnic groups. It is not the same as political or economic persecution or at least that is not how it is commonly used.

pogroms

1. an organized massacre of a particular ethnic group, in particular that of Jewish people in Russia or eastern Europe.

During the holodomor

3.9 million
While it is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million.

 

[reiver1]

Ukrainians consider themselves eastern slavs but a slightly different ethnicity background than Russians. Russians with more northern Fin etc. influence and Ukrainians with more eastern and Turkic influence. The Holodomar coincided with pogroms and many of the Ukrainians deported and targeted were of Jewish ethnicity.

The number I mentioned was too high for the Ukraine alone but not for that period across Russia....no one really knows considering the deportations too. As to the numbers they are all estimates because the Soviets denied it ever happened and this continued even after the fall of the Soviet Union....some still deny it today as some deny the holocaust. IOW, we don't know and I doubt estimate's are anything but that. Much as the starvation of the population in Leningrad was down estimated for decades....

Regardless, that was simply background for K's experience and a reference point for the thesis that the Soviets gave him credit where it was not due for __ fill in the blank. It does not make any sense to me.

 

[barnetmill]

Ukrainians consider themselves eastern slavs but a slightly different ethnicity background than Russians. Russians with more northern Fin etc. influence and Ukrainians with more eastern and Turkic influence. The Holodomar coincided with pogroms and many of the Ukrainians deported and targeted were of Jewish ethnicity.

The number I mentioned was too high for the Ukraine alone but not for that period across Russia....no one really knows considering the deportations too. As to the numbers they are all estimates because the Soviets denied it ever happened and this continued even after the fall of the Soviet Union....some still deny it today as some deny the holocaust. IOW, we don't know and I doubt estimate's are anything but that. Much as the starvation of the population in Leningrad was down estimated for decades....

Regardless, that was simply background for K's experience and a reference point for the thesis that the Soviets gave him credit where it was not due for __ fill in the blank. It does not make any sense to me.

The russians are now likely different in genes and for sure in language from Ukrainians. Mongols destroyed kievan rus kingdoms set up by swedish vikings in Ukraine in the 13th century and what survived outside of the ukraine became the initial russian empire. Ukraine was ruled by the poles off and on until the russian empire gained control mostly by 1600. The ukrainian cossacks fought the poles and later on caused problems for the czar and IIRC the russian czar disbanded them, but kept the don cossacks that I believe are a very different group. But both of them like to kill jews.
The ukrainian have always been in to killing jews some of them collaborated with the Nazis in that regard becoming war criminals.

 

[Nick]

the thesis that the Soviets gave him credit where it was not due for __ fill in the blank. It does not make any sense to me.

Makes perfect sense. Recall the Russian claims that Berdan 1 was designed by Gorlov and Gunnius while Berdan just put his name on their design. And the .42 Berdan cartridge was also "designed" by Gorlov and Gunnius - this when nobody in Russia knew how to make metallic cartridges. Then comes Mosin, who also singlehandedly designed the three-line rifle (on which there is also an excellent book, again by Chumak). Never mind Nagant, the two committees that worked on the gun, the Austrian cartridge, the Lebel barrel, the Hotchkiss bolt...

 

[reiver1]

Makes perfect sense. Recall the Russian claims that Berdan 1 was designed by Gorlov and Gunnius while Berdan just stole their design. And the .42 Berdan cartridge was also "designed" by Gorlov and Gunnius - this when nobody in Russia knew how to make metallic cartridges. Then comes Mosin, who also singlehandedly designed the three-line rifle (on which there is also an excellent book, again by Chumak). Never mind Nagant, the two committees that worked on the gun, the Austrian cartridge, the Lebel barrel, the Hotchkiss bolt...

Ok then, what proof is there of that, that they would pick a nobody of unknown history.
This was not the Russia of the Tsars but Soviet ...Communists. He was competing with already famous and known designers and they chose the son of a Kulak whose family had been deported? This during the post war crack downs and Gulags being filled again? IMO the two periods do not conflate in any measure but if you, or others, have provided some documents or proof of such I'd be open to conversion.
My why is this...the whole Soviet system was heralded as 'the collective' and downplayed individual achievement as bourgeoise .... iow, it would have been more 'Soviet' to say this work was a collective achievement..communal.
That attitude was not the prevalent attitude during the Monarchy.

 

[Nick]

No proof, of course. I totally believe that the semi-literate guy designed the gun all by himself.