When did Finland get Mosin Nagants from Austria?
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Austria-Hungary was a much larger country prior to WWI. You may recall from World History in high school that the assisination of Austria's Archduke Ferdinand by some Serb nationals in Sarajevo was generally regarded as the trigger for WWI. You will note on the following image that Austria bordered Russia. They were on opposite sides in that conflict. As a result, the Austrians ended up with a significant number of captured Mosin Nagants in spite of the fact they lost that conflict. You can also see from the map that Austria-Hungary was broken up into many countries after WWI. Finland purchased many of those rifles after WWI, which is why you a significant number of Finn Mosin Nagants with Austrian capture markings.
http://www.ironhorse129.com/Mosin/i...world_war_i_1914-1918_austria-hungary_map.jpg
Tapio
http://www.ironhorse129.com/Mosin/i...world_war_i_1914-1918_austria-hungary_map.jpg
Tapio
In the 20s and 30s Finland bought weapons from a lot of people. Yes, even Germany, Austria, France, etc, etc.
This link does a better job at giving a more clear picture. It's towards the beginning.
http://mosinnagant.net/finland/M91inFinland.asp
This link does a better job at giving a more clear picture. It's towards the beginning.
http://mosinnagant.net/finland/M91inFinland.asp
Field Editor ~ GUNS Magazine, Co-Author ~ Serbian Army Weapons of Victory &PH - Kudu Safaris
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Hello Gents,
Don't leave out Germany's captured rifles, which exceeded the number of M91 Three-Line rifles that were captured by Austro-Hungarian units during WWI. In the opening months of the war, following the Battles of Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes, the German's had captured over 300,000 M91s, and this was only six weeks after the war had started! Huge numbers were captured through the course of the Great War.
Germany supplied Turkey with enough M91s to equip several divisions. The Germans also supplied substantial numbers of Russian rifles to Austria-Hungary through the course of the war as well.
So Germany was left with large quantities of weapons that were provided to her former enemies as war reparations and additional weapons were indeed sold per the terms of the treaty that brought the war to an end.
Hope this info helps.
Warmest regards,
JPS
Don't leave out Germany's captured rifles, which exceeded the number of M91 Three-Line rifles that were captured by Austro-Hungarian units during WWI. In the opening months of the war, following the Battles of Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes, the German's had captured over 300,000 M91s, and this was only six weeks after the war had started! Huge numbers were captured through the course of the Great War.
Germany supplied Turkey with enough M91s to equip several divisions. The Germans also supplied substantial numbers of Russian rifles to Austria-Hungary through the course of the war as well.
So Germany was left with large quantities of weapons that were provided to her former enemies as war reparations and additional weapons were indeed sold per the terms of the treaty that brought the war to an end.
Hope this info helps.
Warmest regards,
JPS
Iirc, most if not all were sold to Finland or traded for other arms. Most, one would assume, that they did not meet quality standards of the Finns and were canabalized for parts. You can see some of the newly produced Finnish arms having made use of the Turkish remarked rear sights. All other usable parts would have also been used, but bare no Turkish markings. Other than that, barrel, and receiver you would not know the difference of where the rifles had originated from. Finding an M91 with all of the Turkish features intact is a pretty rare, if not very rare, occurrence.
Field Editor ~ GUNS Magazine, Co-Author ~ Serbian Army Weapons of Victory &PH - Kudu Safaris
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While most of them have disappeared over the years, occasionally a rare Turkish issue M91 rifle will turn up. Here is an example from my collection.
This particular example is an 1894 dated Chatellerault with the original finger spur.
A Turkish serial number has been added and the right side of the rear sight base has been numbered as well.
Some of these photos are very old and do not do therifle justice, however a new set of photos are on my "to do" list.
Warmest regards,
JPS
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399 Posts
meh... I don't know enough about war reparations and how small arms (M91s) fit into the equation, but AZF-marked (for example) rifles could've been sold from Austria (or Hungary) to get some liquid income during the 1920s, if they were part of war reparations then they would have gone through Italy, Russia or some other Entente power/ or belligerent of A-H.
I agree with your statement, Layer Cake. However, referring to the map in my previous post, Austria itself was on the far east side of the Austria-Hungary empire. If captured during the war (before Austria-Hungary was broken up) a Mosin Nagant would have received the AZF stamp regardless of where in the empire it was captured. The majority of the Austrian capture rifles were likely to have been located along the Russian front on the far West side of the empire. To me that says the majority of the AZF stamped rifles were not purchased by Finland from post-war Austria. Rather they were likely purchased from the now-independent states. Of course that is conjecture on my part. The purchases happened 70-80 years ago and nobody was monitering the purchases from the various new countries to see how many had AZF stamps.
Given the fact Russia acquired a portion of the A-H empire post war, it is likely a fair number of AZF stamped rifles ended up back in Russia. So how many of you have seen a Soviet Arsenal Refurb rifle with an AZF stamp on the receiver?
One of the most interesting aspects of this hobby is the history behind the rifles. Where facts are not available, it is very interesting to me to listen to the various theories, like the one I just described and the others in this thread.
Tapio
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One of the most interesting aspects of this hobby is the history behind the rifles. Where facts are not available, it is very interesting to me to listen to the various theories, like the one I just described and the others in this thread.
Tapio Tapio, Once again a succinct comment that describes the inestimable worth of Gunboards and its contributors.
“Bugler. Sound the charge.” Captain Nathan Brittles
Tapio Tapio, Once again a succinct comment that describes the inestimable worth of Gunboards and its contributors.
“Bugler. Sound the charge.” Captain Nathan Brittles
Field Editor ~ GUNS Magazine, Co-Author ~ Serbian Army Weapons of Victory &PH - Kudu Safaris
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Long day today business wise, but I'll come back to this later in greater detail. The AZF facility was but one of many arsenals and depots that inspected, and when necessary, repaired or altered captured M91s for re-iisue to A-H troops.
More late tonight or over the weekend.....
JPS
More late tonight or over the weekend.....
JPS
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4,624 Posts
This is a GREAT and very interesting and informative thread...it's also REALLY refreshing to see new GunBoards members who already have a firm understanding of the various eras these Mosins saw usage and of the Mosins themselves!!...
GAAK! Me thinks he could be referring to me. Aw shucks.
If I could just figure how to post images properly to the threads, I might be inclined to show you a few things. I just had this hot M27 show up. I'm pretty used to tags. But I can't seem to get them to work here. Can anyone point this poor embarassed soul at where instructions are hidden?
Tapio
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