Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
323 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This 3 shot group (head shot ones) was at 125 yards with surplus spam can ammo from the 80’s.

Genuine Tula 44 PU.

Curious what you guys are getting with your Mosins. This seems underwhelming based off of what I figured it could do. But who knows.
3778318
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,297 Posts
It's really funny, I have tons of notes on this from different rifles. But it could be summed up like this:

Surplus cans ammo produces horrible results in my PU Snipers. On average 3 - 5 MOA.
Commercial grade "148gr" new production ammo on average 1.5 - 2 MOA
Commercial grade ammo is good enough for me for plinking at 700yds on IPSC size targets.
Match grade ammo: sub MOA results.

Yes, every rifle is different, but on average, I never get anything consistent from my old spam cans.
Most of my "surplus" ammo was made in factory 188 tho...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
323 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
With handloads I get 1 moa accuracy

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
I have a question. Does surplus ammo not perform well due to its age, or simply because the technology wasn’t as great with load data? If I used 1945 ammo in 1945, would it perform like high quality commercial/handloads ? If so then I don’t mind using nicer ammo.

The reason I ask is because personally, although commercial or handloads are way more accurate, to me it takes away the fun. I don’t want the rifle to be able to do anything it couldn’t have done when it was in its hay day during the war. I prefer to feed these weapons with what they had. Then there performance is more real and believable to it’s nature all those years ago. Sure you can get “1MOA”, but did soldiers in the war get 1MOA with 1944 ammo?

For precision shooting, why not just get a 2020 grade precision rifle?

Sorry that might seem weird but I have always felt that way.
😅
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
I have a question. Does surplus ammo not perform well due to its age, or simply because the technology wasn’t as great with load data? If I used 1945 ammo in 1945, would it perform like high quality commercial/handloads ? If so then I don’t mind using nicer ammo.

The reason I ask is because personally, although commercial or handloads are way more accurate, to me it takes away the fun. I don’t want the rifle to be able to do anything it couldn’t have done when it was in its hay day during the war. I prefer to feed these weapons with what they had. Then there performance is more real and believable to it’s nature all those years ago. Sure you can get “1MOA”, but did soldiers in the war get 1MOA with 1944 ammo?

For precision shooting, why not just get a 2020 grade precision rifle?

Sorry that might seem weird but I have always felt that way.
I haven't studied this at all but I have a hunch it is massed produced ammo where minute of man was considered good enough to kill the enemy. There is sniper ammo (7N1 I believe?) That tells me they knew their mass produced ammo was inaccurate thus they made a more precise version for their snipers.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
323 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I haven't studied this at all but I have a hunch it is massed produced ammo where minute of man was considered good enough to kill the enemy. There is sniper ammo (7N1 I believe?) That tells me they knew their mass produced ammo was inaccurate thus they made a more precise version for their snipers.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
I know the Germans did that. Not sure if other countries had “sniper ammo”.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,765 Posts
I have had somewhat different results in that I've seen MOA level performance from my range PU with Chinese and Soviet surplus and that is maxing out my ability as I can't improve on it with modern ammo or handloads. I believe the Chinese stuff is 50's or 60's vintage, the Soviet stuff is older. I've had similar good results with surplus with other iron sighted Mosins, including a couple of Finn rifles that seem to prefer surplus to anything else. Generalizations are dangerous as quality of surplus ammo and bore condition of our Mosins is all over the page.

Ruprecht
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,684 Posts
I haven't studied this at all but I have a hunch it is massed produced ammo where minute of man was considered good enough to kill the enemy. There is sniper ammo (7N1 I believe?) That tells me they knew their mass produced ammo was inaccurate thus they made a more precise version for their snipers.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
7n1, and the later 7n14 ammo was developed specifically for the Dragunov SVD.The standard 148gr LPS 57-N-323S cartridge was primarily intended for use in the PK family of machine guns and has a lower accuracy requirement, hence the development of the 7n1 enhanced accuracy round for sniper use.

I can get sub-MOA groups from my arsenal matching ‘44 Izhevsk PU if I do my part and the planets align, but it does have an immaculate bore/muzzle crown and is perfectly shimmed and has been set up for maximum accuracy, surprisingly this was done in 1959 when it was refurbed!.With surplus ammo it shoots around 1.5-2.5 MOA depending on the ammos country of origin/age etc.

whilst I agree it is nice to sometimes shoot these old rifles with period ammo the same as Soviet troops would have done I would also say that it is highly likely that if a Soviet sniper in The Great Patriotic War had access to a round with enhanced accuracy and better consistency they would have taken advantage of it in the same way we do today with the use of either factory match grade ammo or handloads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,684 Posts
This 3 shot group (head shot ones) was at 125 yards with surplus spam can ammo from the 80’s.

Genuine Tula 44 PU.

Curious what you guys are getting with your Mosins. This seems underwhelming based off of what I figured it could do. But who knows. View attachment 3778318
That target is a lot smaller than a blokes noggin at 125yds so in reality it is doing what it was designed to do, it is very easy to get hung up on chasing tiny groups and can become obsessive.If it shoots like that consistently with surplus and you’re having fun doing it I’d say happy days and enjoy it 👍
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,076 Posts
View attachment 3778394 100 yards rested with a good handload, at least 10 shots in the group. Extremely pleased with mine
This is about right if you handload and your rifle/barrel is good. Some of them just don't shoot as well. Mine are about 1.5 MOA maybe better on some days... then definitely worse when I got the flinchies They do well in CMP match games.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,016 Posts
Looks about right for surplus. I’ve even pulled the bullets and reloaded with new brass and powder and still only gotten 1.5 to 2 MOA with the surplus light ball Soviet bullets.

1-1.5 with some handloads and especially D166 (though I don’t shoot many of those).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,221 Posts
As stated, with hand loads, sub MOA if condition of rifle is up to it...and shooter.

Since spam can ammo is near extinct and in 5 yrs evaporated completely , this shooting a rifle as if you were in
1943 to 1945 goes out the window...just as it did with M1 rifles and any WWII battle rifle. All were capable of man size hits with iron sights out to 600 yds. (and recently on Japanese board, a gent did it with a Type 99...something I have failed at).

So we are back to the reality of shooting the ammo "that is". If that is Tula , its probably going to under perform vs. PRVI commercial ammo (it does in my PU snipers) . If the intent is to shoot your PU with the least accurate ammo for the least accuracy, then do so. If the intent is to enjoy your PU's potential accuracy, then shoot the ammo it demands for that purpose.

Its more than ammo though. What is it you want to achieve and if its WWII performance, get some E2 man size silhouettes and measure success on how many hits you get at various distances. % of hits ..and call it a day.

If its accuracy in consistent shots in smallest shot groups: shoot bullseyes or go to a CMP match and try to hold the 10X ring. Or just shoot a gallon milk jug 100 to 600 yds and count % of hits....realistically that is head shots out to 600 yds and will test rifle and you.

If one really wants to see PU sniper rifles in hands of serious shooters in competition, contact Lund. He'll wire you up with the Henry County Sniper Matches every month of the year. Those boys will show you what you can do with a PU and its not theory, not academics, its shooting !
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top