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sks, tokarev, makarov, combloc
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I apologize for the blue tone in the pictures. I don't know what I did. But for now, at least everybody can see the markings. the side plate says something like experimental or what? the side plate number on the inside does not match the number on the frame. there are no proof marks on the right side. What you see is what I see. It is single action. So, help me out here. what is it? Is it collectible? is it unusual? is it??? whatever? all help appreciated.
 

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This is the enigmatic Х.О.Д.К.А. marking! No one knows for sure what it means. The rest of the text is easy, Эксперимент м-кая = experimental workshop.
 

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this got me curious, so I GOOGLE'd the Cyrillic and it pointed me to a Russian gun board forum. from what I was able to gleen. Х.О.Д.К.А means Харьковский Окружной Дом Красной Армии (Kharkov District home (of the) Red Army)

the only thing I can imagine why this would be stamped as "experimental", is perhaps the military district had a small factory and made them locally for their forces.

while I was at the Russian forum, someone posted a picture of a 1895 that was made by optics factory, ГОМЗ (GOMZ) Государственный оптико-механический завод, (State Optical-Mechanical Factory). now that is a very interesting and very historical piece, far more historically then any other 1895, IMO. that factory was located in Leningrad, that pistol was made at the height of the siege. 1941-1944



 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you both for this most interesting information. And especially for sharing a picture of the optics factory made Nagant (1943). That is really interesting. Rare indeed! made in Leningrad in the middle of that horrible siege. Looks like an arsenal rework mark as well. I wonder what that means for this most interesting Nagant revolver.
I have been inspired to spend the last hour goggling Kharkov military district, which is in the northeastern part of Ukraine, currently on the edge of the simmering caldron of U.S. and Russian tensions.
Some research notes the formation of the Kharkov military district in 1919 and thereafter thru the great war.
So I guess it is safe to say this is an experimental gun made at Kharkov military district after 1919? And since it is single action does the fact of it being single action have something to do with what ever was being experimented? Any thoughts? Thanks again as this puts this gun in historical perspective which is one of my great interests.
 

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And since it is single action does the fact of it being single action have something to do with what ever was being experimented? Any thoughts?
early, they made 2 versions of the 1895, single action for enlisted/NCO double action for officers. not 100 percent sure, but I believe that they did away with the single action only models later and made them all double action

as for the word experimental, you have to realized that words in one language doesn't necessary have the same meaning as in another., while the word experimental means a certain connotation in English, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only meaning in Russian, it can also have another meaning all together

take the word Дом (doma), that word means home, for us, home means a private resident where we live in, or , or what city we're from. in Russian it also means that as well as house and establishment as well, depending on how it's used. a lot of words in English, don't necessarily mean the same thing in other languages, it can, but may also have another meaning and visa versa

that's the whole problem when you try to fit certain words that translate into English into English meanings. some fit, but it also could have a different meaning as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks again with this good advice. We will all wait for Joe to tell us the true meaning or intent of experimental in this situation. From what you have said it could just be a way to distinguish a put together from parts expedient nagant from the those made at the Tula arsenal. It has no arsenal proof marks on the frame. But until we get Joe's opinion I will not draw any conclusions.
 

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First the Х.О.Д.К.А. mark. Nick is correct, no one knows what it means. These revolvers are known and I have pictures of several other examples, but I've never before seen one that wasn't a refurb. The parts on this one are all Imperial or very early Soviet - the hammer OTK marks. The trigger guard is post 1916 (no serial number). The grips look "funny" are they made of walnut or oak?
I have some suspicions about these but am not will to put them in print yet.

BTW production of the single action was terminated in 1922. Single action parts have been observed on target revolvers from the 1924-1936 period, but most have earlier Imperial parts. The are exceptions to that as well and star marked, post 1928, single action parts are known.

As to the ГОМЗ revolver, check out the sticky on the sideplate markings 1941-1945. A significant part of ГОМЗ was evacuated from Leningrad to Kazan in 1941 and the revolvers were made there, not in Leningrad. I suspect that the Kazan factory is where the tooling from Tula went, not Izhevsk.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?178984-Nagant-side-plate-markings-1941-to-1945
Joe
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Joe and others
thanks for the replies. here are some proper color balanced pictures. While I am not an expert on wood they look like all other Nagant wood grips which I assume is walnut.
The frame seems to be made somewhere, other than Tula, while the rest of the mixed parts are arsenal marked. The barrel is blue while some of the rest is either bare metal or other?
Joe, what did you think about SfcRet s observations?
Anyway, here are some better, I hope, pictures. I await your observations and thoughts.
 

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The frame is definitely Tula, the marks on the inside are correct. However, it has been resurfaced (ground down), and you can seen the remains of the original serial number and the right side OTK in the pictures.
The parts are 1916-1922 and the frame is definitely pre 1928 (the loading gate alignment tooth is present).
The barrel and front sight are replacement - post 1932. Does it have the 'V' or 'U' shaped rear sight groove?
The side plate is obviously a replacement and would likely indicate that an existing revolver was resurfaced and the new side plate with the experimental shop mark was added when it was put together for testing something. And yes, it does mean experimental shop - Эксперимент м-кая = experimental workshop is obvious and as I believe that Nick is a native speaker, I would agree with him.

These are not common, but there are more than 2 or three of them out there. As I said before, this is the first example I have seen that wasn't a refurb and has more or less period components which is marvelous information.
I would definitely like to examine better, more detailed pictures.

As to SfcRet's remarks; the original Russian contract (1896-98) to Russia of 20,000 revolvers was single action only and officers were expected to buy the commercial version which was "triple action" (both double and single action) from the Officer's supply stores.
Production started at Tula in 1898 and both versions were produced, but by far the majority of the early production was single action. Estimates of double action production run in the 15-20% range. Production of the single action only was terminated with the orders of 1922. All Standard Service revolvers produced after that were supposed to be "triple action".

The rest is irrelevent because no one is sure what the other acronym is. Russian and Soviet acronyms are often (read that as almost always) confusing and many times the meanings have been lost, they were obvious at the time but the times have changed.

I do agree that often direct translation of words from one language to another is dangerous at best.
Joe
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Joe
Again very interesting information. As you know, we both love investigating the history. Send me the pictures you need via my e mail so I can send them as attachments to a reply e mail. I think they would be easier to use that way. tell me what you want, how close up ( I will do my best) and if you prefer a certain color background, etc.. Email me at [email protected].
roger
P.S.
Since the replaced barrel is much later than the other parts I wonder if the experimentation had something to do with a special barrel. Silenced or ? Then somebody here put a barrel they could find to sell it several years ago. Anyway no way to know now.
 
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