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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
WHAT IS CORRECT? TYPE OR MODEL

Topic author: SAKIJOE
Subject: WHAT IS CORRECT? TYPE OR MODEL
Posted on: 11/25/2006 11:14:52 AM
Message:

TO THE MEMBERES,
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IS CORRECT.
TYPE OR MODEL?
IN TELLING THE TYPES OF RIFLES.
BOB



Replies:

Reply author: Bushido101
Replied on: 11/25/2006 11:26:18 AM
Message:
Correct is Type.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2006 11:46:50 AM
Message:
AHH the great debate,.....for your consideration: http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/FeatArts/ModNotType/Model.htm#Top_Model_Not_Type

Reply author: Nagoya10
Replied on: 11/25/2006 11:53:11 AM
Message:
Gosh, I hope this debate does not start up here! No matter which is correct, collectors have universally used TYPE, so I hope it stays that way. Anyway, it differentiates Japanese weapons and militaria from all the other countries out there who universally use MODEL and that alone makes it better, to me.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/25/2006 11:55:27 AM
Message:
It often depends upon which translator you talk to. However, it appears thate "Model" is slightly more technically correct. Despite this, all the major works on Japanese weapons, Military Rifles of Japan, Japanese Military Cartridge Handguns 1893-1945, etc have continued to use "Type", probably based upon some of the wartime U.S. manuals on the subject. It appears that "Type" is locked in and will probably be used in the future. Oddly, this is not true overseas where Model is common.

If you accept that language ultimately depends upon how it is most commonly used, "Type" is going to be it, at least in the U.S.

Frank


Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2006 12:16:25 PM
Message:
type 99 or model 99, translation from a word that gives a whole idea to one in another language is never gonna be perfect..either way it conveys the IDEA of " that which was accepted for production in year 2599"....I happen like type,even if it may be not quite correct, just cause it sounds cooler...JMHO,Dave

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/25/2006 1:28:47 PM
Message:
This is one of Doss's favorite discussions!
Right up there with "no series type(model) 38's, last ditch/substitute model(type 99), two bayonet variation collections etc.


Reply author: unleashedndest
Replied on: 11/25/2006 1:57:04 PM
Message:
type, style,model, design it's all the same. as Dave pointed out the meaning of words being translated usually has to be flexible because, many words don't have an equivale. not in another language so I'd say which ever word you prefer to describe the prodution piece

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/25/2006 2:09:01 PM
Message:
The "Japanese Military Dictionary" printed by The War Department in Aug of 1944 says "shiki" = type (with the single character we all know) and that "mokei" = model (two characters used). I don't know if this is the best reference for this, but that's what it says.

Reply author: SAKIJOE
Replied on: 11/25/2006 2:42:46 PM
Message:
WOW!! I DID NOT MEAN TO START ANY THING, AS A KID I WAS TOLD THAT IT WAS TYPE AND ALL THE BOOKS I READ STATED TYPE. BUT IN NEWER POSTING SOME ARE STATING MODEL, ENGLAND CALLS JAPANESE RIFLES MODELS.
STILL WILLING TO LEARN.
BOB

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/25/2006 3:09:15 PM
Message:
its all in good fun. one of several never ending debates/discussions..the only important thing to remeber is always say "No-Series" and "substitute standard type"...try to say them as often as possible,its very good for certain peoples blood pressure
.....and remeber there are no bad questions, if a person doesnt know and would like to ,its fine to ask anything...tho sometimes the answers make you wish you hadnt asked,as the level of frivolity and jocularity(Ive always wanted to use that word) can go right off the charts given a chance.


Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/25/2006 3:14:26 PM
Message:
Saki, I've never joined in this discussion and could really live happily everafter with either "type" or "model." It's funny that you brought this up. Probably a year ago, another collector who does serious research called and told me that I was right all along with "type." At the time he told me, I didn't take the time to write down what he said. While talking with him the other night, he said that he would pull the whole story together again with references. I don't want to steal his thunder so will wait on him to publish. However, a hint of whether "type" or "model" is correct is found in Japanese Explosive Ordnance (which I also have in print) on page 423, which I just flipped to for an example. Reference is made to the "Type 95 Large Mark 2 Model 1 Base Fuze." Allied intelligence ran into problems translating designations and decided the base group was "type," variations within the "type" were "models", so type is the larger or overall grouping with models being sub-type. I remember asking one of the major contributors, Dr. Kawamura, why he called the rifle a Type 38, and he said because it is a type. Anyway, the decision to term the rifles, pistols, etc., as "type" was an allied ordnance decision. As for me, I don't split hairs or worry the matter. As they say on FOX, I report, you decide.

Saki, I'm sitting here smiling. Just couldn't sit still any longer. Did I stir the pot enough, or do I need it pick it up and shake it?

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 11/25/2006 5:32:19 PM
Message:

To add further controversy to this seemingly unending discussion, I once asked a friend of mine who was a student in Japan during the war which translation was correct: "type" or "model." His reply was that neither was proper; instead he used the term "style."

C/

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/25/2006 11:13:25 PM
Message:
Chip, you know, "style" actually fits the meaning best for "shiki". But of course "type" and "model" could also be a translation for "shiki". The issue is as Fred mentions, that the word "kata" was specifically used by the Japanese military as nomenclature to differentiate from "shiki". For "kata" the only correct translation will be "model", hence a translation for "shiki" as used in the Japanese weapons context would have to rule out "model" since it's already reserved for "kata". So in the end, we got either "type" or "style" to choose from, but "style" somehow doesn't ring right for hardcore military nomenclature, so for the time being we settle with "type". Confusing eh ? hehe.

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/26/2006 07:57:52 AM
Message:
Edokko, in a nutshell, U.S. Ordnance used the same logic you did, and, apparently, it was a big deal. It is interesting that in the volumes of correspondence I received from ordnance personnel and authors in Japan the word "type" was used all the time. In the '70's when I was putting the work together I also assumed another reason for using "type." The "l" letter is not in your old alphabet and may not be there today, so the writers would have avoided "model" altogether, which by default makes "type" more correct. It was just an idea, never did any research on it. But, you know, I've still got a dozen or so more explanations for using "type." We're just getting started and have not hit our stride yet.

Reply author: Otter
Replied on: 11/26/2006 09:21:07 AM
Message:
Alright, since FredH said:

I've never joined in this discussion and could really live happily everafter with either "type" or "model."

I think we should all agree to use "Thingy"...I own a Thingy 14, I own a Thingy 97...What's that Thingy??
...How does that Thingy work?...Nice Thingy!


Works for me!

Reply author: DocAV
Replied on: 11/26/2006 10:34:42 AM
Message:
Mokei (Model) vs Shiki(Type). By looking at the title of a renowned Japanese Railroad Modelling magazine ("Tetsudo Mokei Shumi"=="IronWay Model ?news?"),it is obvious that the term "Mokei" refers to "model" in its representative format (ie, miniature representation, replica, variation of the basic design).

Shiki (pronounced "sh'k'"in Japanese) is a character(and meaning) Common to Japanese and Chinese, and means "Type" or "Style" ( as in design).
The reading "Type" is the commonly accepted rendition in both languages. Whilst we see it as an "ordnance" term, it is commonly used to designate "models"(designs) in both languages, and probably in early Korean as well (where Chinese characters were once Common alongside HanGul, the national Korean syllabary.).

Anyway, "Type" is part of the jargon of Guncollectors worldwide, and not only in English. It distinguishes Japanese firearms (and Chinese and Siamese as well) from all others at a word.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/26/2006 1:18:56 PM
Message:
Tetsudo Mokei Shumi ?? boy haven't seen that magazine in ages, and just think I used to be a railroad fan, creepy..(to be honest I still like watching big locos in museums with the kids though). The magazine's correct translation is Railroad Model Hobby.
Anyway the "model" translation of"mokei" is defined as DocAV describes, a replica or miniature representative (ie. model trains, model planes, plastic models etc). The "model" translation of "kata" is defined as nomenclature description (ie. Bomber Model B-17, Winchester Model 1894 etc).

Fred, the Japanese pronunciation for "L" or "l" has always been "ru", so model would be pronounced "moderu". It's the classic Japanese English pronunciation where all the "l"s turns into "r"s, and the "r"s turn into "l"s. I.E. "Eru Oorudo Honbure" (Ele Olde Hombre) or "Lo-nin 48" (Ronin 48).

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/26/2006 1:49:28 PM
Message:
If I'd have had a son rather than a daughter I would have been into model railroading. I always liked the little world you could create with it [scary, huh?]. A son would have been my "excuse" for that hobby. But, I was already into this illness at an early age & adopted a daughter, so here I am.

Reply author: HowdyDoody
Replied on: 11/26/2006 3:21:51 PM
Message:
Hey Dogs, I have a son and daughter. Both moved away now but the model railroad is still in the basement. No grandchildren yet, but my sister's grandchildren ocassionally show up and immediatly head for the basement. You really need another expensive hobby.

jim

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/26/2006 5:15:44 PM
Message:
Where is all this going? Friday night I'm talking with another author about "model" vs "type," and a posting shows up the next day on this subject. This afternoon I took my 5 year old grandson up to Port St. Lucie to a club model train display, and we spent the afternoon there. I turn the computer back on after returning, and the "type" discussion has drifted to model trains. I aint gonna tell you guys what I'm doing in the morning!

Edokko, I know about the pronounciation changes with "l." I learned it from an old Kingston Trio song back in the late '50's that had a line in it, "I see you are surprised I speak your language. You see, I was educated in your country at UCRA." Seriously though, I listened to Japanese language tapes for a few years recently going back and forth to work and did learn something.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/26/2006 9:24:09 PM
Message:
Okay, I confess. I still have (I think) a closet full of N-gauge model trains stuffed in my parents home in Tokyo. Used to build the track layouts too, with about 20 levers for remote controlled track switchers. Plus ! (oh no !), I used to go all over Japan to photograph unusual or old "style" trains and locos too. That's when I was in middle school to high school, one of the ways to let off steam from the frustration of not being able to own or shoot any guns in Japan.

Fred, It's great to know you have been studying Japanese ! Will visit your home next year and let's exchange BS in Japanese over cups of sake !!

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/26/2006 11:30:46 PM
Message:
Well I guess I'll just try & enjoy building this extremely detailed, high end doll house for my daughter in a few years! Maybe I'll have a train set running in the living room


Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 11/27/2006 07:39:44 AM
Message:
Well, Jareth, I tried that too. When my daughter was small and wanted the doll house for Xmas, I put off putting the kit together 'til the night before. Naturally, Mrs. H and I had been to a party, arrived home about 2:00 in the morning with me 3 sheets to the wind, and then I had to go through a 50 page instruction book to get it together. Somehow, it all came together in the next 3 hours. Can't remember the details, but no complaints. Somehow parents succeed. Oh, to keep this kosher, I'd better add that it was a Japanese produced doll house and that my Xmas present from my wife was a T100 take-down packaged next to it under the tree.


Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/27/2006 08:34:34 AM
Message:
No doll houses, just buy the daughters model trains, toy cars and guns..those are all unisex toys (not sure thats a safe phrase to use around here)...first outfit I remember buying my daughter was a tiny set of BDU's ...she turned out ok,loves guns goes to the range weekly and shoots tournements and such..even if she does like junk like glocks and X-40's over nambu's and 1911a's.

Reply author: DocAV
Replied on: 11/27/2006 3:42:42 PM
Message:
Dear Edokko and all the rest,
TMS was my introduction to the Japanese language on a serious plane.
prior to my going to Italy (in 1974) for a ten year University diversion,the only japanese I knew was "Sampachi" and "Nambu".
Whilst in italy (NO guns there for me)I re-activated my interest in Model Railroading (all the best US-design Models were made in Italy).
A friend of mine, who had been with the Italian Diplomatic service, also a train buff, said to me "I have a stack of japanese Model Railroad magazines, do you want them...Beautiful pictures, but the text is all in Kanji and katakana. So I started with a Character Dictionary (Nelson's) and a "teach yourself" series grammar, and taught myself transliteration into Romaji, and from there translation into English. As i was reading a subject of which I knew the technical terms (Japanese railroading is full of US Railroad jargon) it was relatively easy. I used my Japanese study as a "Stress relief" from my heavy medical degree Study...when I was full up to the pits with Drug dosages and heart electrical variations, I would retreat to the attic, pull out the TMS, and translate a page or two. BTW, on my Honeymoon 1980, we did a stopover in Osaka, and Visited the JNR Museum there, as well as Purchasing some JNR Mokei in HO scale (Steam outline, of course).

Sadly, after my return to Australia, in 1984, I left my Japanese studies to return to other thiungs, but my son took it up for some 8 years of school and University, before switching to Mandarin, for which he got a major in his liberal arts degree...he is now in China, doing a masters in Chinese Domestic Law...our ambitions are fullfilled by our children...I still maintain a"recognition" factor of the Japanese language, both Written and spoken, and also the basic grammatical knowledge of how the Language "works"...much more important than Fluency for a Gun-researcher like me.

BTW, I still have the ten years of accumulated TMS at home, and hope to rekindle the interst in Japanese(Railroading and language) when (if) i retire form Gun related subjects.....

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 11/27/2006 4:53:36 PM
Message:
Doc AV, fascinating story. Through this thread, I'm beginning to feel that railroads and weapons have something in common to catch a guys attention. I'm not sure the gun hobby part will let any of us retire though.

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/27/2006 5:26:15 PM
Message:
I promise I'll have a miniature Japanese collection room in our doll house


Reply author: keithreid
Replied on: 11/27/2006 6:41:35 PM
Message:
not suprising to have an argument over a meaning. i've always thought that some of the meanings of japanese words fall halfway between the meaning of 2 english words.
want a little amusement? look up the word gaijin. to some people it might mean foreigner. to others, it might still mean barbarian.

didn't think i'd ever make sense out of "shoga nai", either. the ex thought it was hilarious to keep saying that when i'd ask her what it meant. y'all have a good day, Keith

Reply author: DocAV
Replied on: 12/03/2006 02:07:40 AM
Message:
Gai-jin=== Foreign person or "Outside person"...The term "Southern barbarian" derives from the arrival of "bearded persons" from the seas south of Japan in the 1500s (The Spanish and Portuguese coming up from the Philippines, usually on their way to China (Macao and the Pearl River delta) or crossing the North Pacific to Acapulco, in Spanish Mexico; The term was originally applied to shipwrecked sailors, and by extension, to all foreigners.

The connotation "barbarian" derives from translation of the Japanese term used for the "Ainu", the bearded and hairy Indigenous population of the northenmost regions of the Japanese island grouping. It was an indication of "Difference" from the general Japanese Population.

As Japanese was first translated into Latin and Portuguese by the 1590s, by Jesuit Fathers, the connection " bearded=="barbaros"==barbarian was made (very similar to what the Ancient Greeks did, where they considered anybody with beards different from their style, as "barbaros" or uncouth foreigners. The Romans adopted a lot of Greek usages,and since the Romans were generally a clean-shaven civilization, anybody from "beyond" and sporting a large beard were considered "barbari" ( barbarian, from which the English word and connotation derive.)

In Chinese (Mandarin, or Northern language) the term for Foreigner
is Guai-Ren (Foreign person), a more polite rendition. In the earthier and more direct Southern Chinese Dialect ("Cantonese") the word is "Guai-Lo" ( Foreign Devil). As the Cantonese was the first language most English came in contact with in trading and emigration, the term "Foreign devil" has become part of the English language as well.

It is interesting how similar concepts translate across language barriers in odd ways.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics

Reply author: HowdyDoody
Replied on: 12/03/2006 06:21:19 AM
Message:
Remember a few years ago when Pepsi's slogan "COME ALIVE" was translated to other languages and came out "BRING BACK FROM THE DEAD".

jim

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 12/03/2006 10:25:28 PM
Message:
Interesting how topics on this board take a twist...I was Christmas shopping today with my 5 year old boy, while his mom was at Macy's we went to "Hobby Town" here in Indianapolis. He went right to the trucks & race cars, and I was immediately captivated by the model RR layout in the store (N gauge). What a flood of memories it brought back of my dad & I setting up our HO layout when I was 7 or 8, when I would lose myself in the pure pleasure of that miniature world for hours. My son at 5 is already showing interest in my militaria collection, but I know now that when he's about 7 we'll build an HO model RR layout in the basement so he too can experience the pure joy I had at that age...The guns & helmets can wait a while!

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 12/03/2006 10:57:25 PM
Message:
Hey Edokko, I forgot to mention, you should read the superb book "Railway Man". The author's name slips my mind, but he was a Scotsman who was loved & was totally absorbed by trains, spent all his spare time as a young man train watching all over Scotland. He was captured on Java at the beginning of the war & endured terrible abuse & privation at the hands of his Japanese captors. All throughout the book he describes his love for trains, and even while working the Burma-Siam Railway he made interesting notes about the Japanese narrow-gauge locomotive using the line he was being forced to labor on. A great read & you may find it especially appealing.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/04/2006 12:13:01 AM
Message:
Hetai, found it on Amazon and sounds interesting. Placed an order for a copy. Thanks


 
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