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DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 1:31:47 PM
Monday the first step takes place in actual transfer of ownership of Westley Richard's 1871 Patent to me. I pay the money and the gun goes into the Dealers vault!



There is a chance, a very slim chance that I might be able to take possession on a temporary use permit before I get the export permit to take it back to America.

Just in case to jump the gun I want to talk about reloading for the gun.



The gun is marked Carbine 1 1/2 and has the 52 proof mark. According the Wal Winfer in his books British Single Shoot Rifles Volume 4 Westley Richards, this according to Winfer is the .450 #1 Carbine cartridge.

I know some of you guys ar shooting this cartridge so I want to here from you.

What are you using to make brass-case and dies?

What loads are you using? What kind of result are you getting?DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.

AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 1:58:52 PM

DD,
I haven't had alot of timeto play with my Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine but I made some dandy cases from 50-70 brass. I "cut to length" by drilling 5/8th holes in a 2X4 and dremel cut useing the 2X4 as a general length guide.
Then trimmed them to proper length. Those new baby sized chop saws would be much better IMO.
Then I formed the necks with a 45-70 die. Seating is done with a 45 Long Colt.
I've just done a little shooting. So far just FG black powder. And it's not MOA yet!

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Download Attachment:
57.3 KBEdited by - AkMike1 on 10/07/2006 2:03:36 PM

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 3:01:02 PM
Thanks Mike, what bullet are you using?

I think Fazer is using the cartridge also.

DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 03:29:15 AM

Douglas,
Here's my old thread about my learning curve on this cartridge from over at the "british Militaria" board.
http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm12.showMessage?topicID=730.topic
I bought a mold from Coyote. I forget about the weight but I think it's about 420 grains. I have also tried some .457 round balls but they weren't worth a sh_t.
Joel Black shoots one also and he says a 45-75 shoots fine from his.
I hope this helps some.

Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:24:00 AM

I'm still shooting those 45/75s from Aardvark Laboratories my Scott 1877 Field action rifle.

Odessa Straight
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
152 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 01:31:53 AM

I'm shooting the cartridge you are asking about from a Martini carbine. When I got the carbine I was told that it was in .45X55 Peabody Martini cal. I'm thinking it's the same cartridge that you want information about (necked down .50). I fireform and trim Winchester .348 brass and shoot either Lee's 405 grain hollow based .45 bullet or the Lyman 330 Gould express hollow point .45 bullet (sized .459). I've used all manner of smokeless powder, but have found 18 grains of 2400 (no wad nor filler of any kind) with the 330 bullet makes for a very accurate load in my carbine. I haven't chronographed it, but guess it goes about 1300 fps with the 330 gr. bullet. I can keep that load grouped into about 3 inches at 100 yards shooting from the prone.

I uses a hodge-podge of dies to reload this cartridge. Once I have cases fireformed/trimmed I neck size wirh a .45 Colt seating die (yep the bullet seating die). I neck expand and bell with a .45 colt expander. I seat the bullets with a .348 neck expander die (the flat of the expander button seats the bullets fine). I don't crimp as the bullets are a tight fit and they chamber fine with the slight bell not being crimped. I've never had to do it, but plan on full length sizing with a .50-70 sizer die if the bases ever expand enough to where they won't chamber.

Starline .50-70 brass wasn't being made,years ago, when I made my cases out of .348s. I'm going to try cases made from .50-70s soon.

Good luck with your projectEdited by - Odessa Straight on 10/20/2006 01:37:16 AM

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 1:41:33 PM

At this time it appears that I will be waiting until I return to the USA to shoot this gun. That gives me 7 months to start rounding up dies, bullets and brassDD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.
Edited by - DoubleD on 10/20/2006 1:42:21 PM

richardwv
MH Forum Moderator


USA
1832 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 5:29:50 PM

Of course if you could get it sent back here early I could warm it up for you.


Rich in WV…..savoring life one cartridge at a time!

Odessa Straight
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
152 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 6:10:39 PM

OK, for what it is worth I contributed something to the forum...so now let me try to get something back and ask about using .45-75s. Is there a reasonably priced source for .45-75 brass (ie Starline?)? Will .45-75 loading dies work for loading the stubby #1 round? Are .45-75 dies available (cheap ones like Lee)?

richardwv
MH Forum Moderator


USA
1832 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 8:28:42 PM

It depends which 45-75 cartridge you are referring to. The 45-75 Sharps is the same case as the Gov't 45-70 with different loading data.....and hence uses the same case and same dies as the 45-70. The 45-75 Winchester is a slightly different case with a .559 base (vice the .500 of the 45-70). Cases for the 45-75 Winchester are currently produced by Jamison, but the dies are a special order item from people like CH-4D and priced accordingly. Base diameter on the #1 round is .576, which is quite a bit larger than the 45-75 Winchester base. The 50-70/50-90 family of cases is a better fit and lower cost choice with their .565 base. Using Starline's 50-90 brass I've been making cases for the Brit family of cartridges with the base diameter of .576. They work extremely well, although they do have just a slightly thinner rim. While my calipers can detect a slight increase in diameter above the solidhead of the case, my eyesight can't. Since the 50-70 case is 1.75 long and costs under $1 a piece, it would be IMHO the best parent case

.

Rich in WV…..savoring life one cartridge at a time!

Odessa Straight
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
152 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 9:22:01 PM

Thanks Richard.
I was asking, mainly, because I saw the posts above about shooting .45-75s in the #1 chambered rifle/carbine (Joel). I do have a good sized batch of Starline .50-70s, but I want to keep them for my .50-70 rifle. Really, I've had/am having great luck with .348 Winchester cases aqnyway. The firing pin dent isn't exactly center punched in the primer and It just seems like a lot of work fireforming and trimming them so I was hoping .45-75 Win. would be closer to the needed length/size. The .348 brass is kinda thick too. I don't neck ream and I can only load bullets up to .460 (My Lee HB 405 mould casts out to .463) before the cartridge refuses to chamber. Fortunately my carbine shoots .459 sized bullets with good accuracy.Edited by - Odessa Straight on 10/21/2006 09:30:34 AM

AkMike1
Gunboards Member


USA
53 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 12:44:06 AM

I tried .348 brass with my Westley Rrichards. But the rim was too small to get caught by the extractor and the base was still to small to fill the chamber after fire forming . The 50-70 was a better fit for rim size and base diameter for my rifle.

Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 07:25:03 AM

On the left is an original British loading. On the right is an Aardvark Labs 45/75 Win formed from 348 Win. In the middle is a 45/75 fired in my rifle. Their measurements are essentially the same. My approach to reloading is the same as Odessa's. Pistol dies of the appropriate diameter, a case trimmer and fireforming is all that is required.

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Odessa Straight
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
152 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 11:42:49 AM

Ahhhhhhh, so the .45-75s you use are formed from .348 Win. I'm thinking that since Uberti is making a Winchester M 1876 repro in .45-75 Win. that Starline may make brass and a few of the regular reloading die companies may make regular priced dies. Cool pics of the Brit round compared to the .45-75 Win...they do look close.

Every year at about this time I toy with the idea of taking my Martini carbine out deer hunting. I've even practiced keeping the block lowered with a round in the chamber...snicking it closed and taking an offhand shot at deer woods ranges. I'm convinced that it would make an excellent close range deer rifle with the Lyman Gould express 330 grain bullet at about 1300-1400 fps.

DoubleD, that is one fine looking rifle. We all know how long the wait will seem to you...but...at least you got it.

DoubleD
Moderator


South Africa
1829 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 01:16:05 AM


DD

That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it an pass it on with pride. It deserves it....Malcolm Cobb The Martini-Henry Note-Book.


B1acksmith
Gunboards Member


USA
99 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 09:41:30 AM

Richard, do you have any experience with the 450 no 2. I assume the 50/90 brass will work, but what do you form it with.Ross

"The problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them." Albert Einstein


Joel Black
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
798 Posts
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 10:33:24 AM

Your excellent drawings demonstrate the need for cerrosafe chamber casts. I was aware of those measurements when I first got my rifle. Even though the caliber was marked, I still did a cast and discovered that this particular chamber was perfect for 45/75 as you can see from the fired case. Each maker in England liked to have their name on ammunition, so you have many variations of the same theme.

drifter mike
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


579 Posts
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 12:42:04 PM

Just thought you might like to know, Ten-X is coming out with a 45/75 round loaded with a black powder substitute. The case will have the proper markings. I would love to have one of those rifles!
MikeEdited by - drifter mike on 10/26/2006 12:54:33 PM
 

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Westley Richards carbine model 1871

Hi, I just joined and hope to find out more about this rifle. It is marked 1 1/2 on top of the barrel and some other markings as well. Was this a military rifle? Do you have any clear good quality pictures of the reciver for both sides?
Thanks
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wait just a bit and my photo hosting site will be back on line. Check back tomorrow for pictures.

Show us a full length picture of you rifle and well beable to tell if it's a sporter or Military. Both of mine are 1 1/2 Carbines and full stock military.
 
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