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Discussion Starter #401 (Edited)
It means the racism has gotten so blatant and frequent that even a Blind Person can see past the BS and Myths about slavery and treason by the confederacy .. and it is highly derogatory.. sort of the type of insult that is allowed when they can't say N***** lover. I prefer "abolitionist" myself. Replaces race traitor

Just look at how it is used DUH!
For the moderator an accurate answer, not one that is made up.

Ammo, once again making up “facts”. The term has been embraced by the left. Tee shirts, banners, placards all using the term and revelling in it. There are scores of blogs and on line organizations that use the term. Watch CNN and MSNBC, I do, and they all use this “highly derogatory” term.

It is no more “highly derogatory” than my saying that someone is “progressive”

Here is another to add to your growing list of made up ideas. Are you “relaying speculation” (ie spreading lies)?

Ammo, you lose all credibility when you make up “facts”!
 

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so you think Washington and the colonists committed treason against the USA?

I could care less about treason of any other country's and most sane Americans probably agree with me , not that I care who agrees and doesn't

But seriously , honestly, you see no difference between treason against the USA and against another Country. especially one denying civil rights to folks .. seriously
I am quite certain that the British Government (of the time) would say that Washington and the Colonists were committing treason.Without a doubt.But in order for a union to work both parties must be happy with it and clearly the majority of your colonists were not.Its the same with your Southern states during your civil war they were not happy being in the union and wanted out.
 

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Three People to never believe

A Religious Leader who tells you how to Vote

A Politician who tells you how to Pray

And

A Draft Dodger who tells you how to be a Patriot

And Smiling Bob


Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason toward my country.”
— PATRICK HENRY

https://orders.stansberryresearch.co...T137955&page=1



You may want to consider removing the quote from Patrick Henry from your sig line.
He was after all, a slave holder.
Yeah you would think.. I believe in giving partial credit , extra credit, and negative credit for the complexities of Humanity.. Henry's crime is not figuring out a way to end slavery, not unlike Jefferson.
https://foundersandslavery.wordpress.com/2015/03/05/patrick-henry-founding-father-slave-holder-and-pioneer/ you have to read the link and internal links. Henry didn't like slavery, and among other things ended the importation of slaves and there are quite a few letter about wanting to end slavery,

the abolishment of slavery is “the furthest advance we can make toward justice….The purity of our religion…is at variance with that law which warrants slavery.” Patrick Henry.

stopped slave imports to Virginia, and supported the Northwest Ordinance. so mixed bag

Jefferson called him a traitor for not supporting the Constitution, preferring the original "Articles of Confederation". thought the new Constitution was too "Big Government" power to tax etc. New Constitution passed without his vote.

So I will keep his quote, thank you very much, might add some more.. he had a lot of good ones

gets points for being against slavery and understanding it was wrong , as opposed to Lee who fought to defend slavery committing treason against the United States and killing Americans in the process . Henry enlisted the help of Quakers who were abolitionists to try a find/ figure out a way to end it. However Henry didn't free his own slaves . Confusing, however Lee is very clear by his actions, somewhat mealy mouth after he lost the war. especial compare to the Henry Quote I added just for you.

Some of you guys have a real black/white view, and some what limited view about the issues at play here. Oh Boy, maybe more study and less gotcha on the subject of Patrick Henry? Maybe

But the opportunity to post just this kind of information was exactly what I had hoped for. Because it , as are other current issues, is very complex .. but it beats the heck out simplistic tear it down , defend it in place regardless, of what it represents to either side .. move stuff to private property to save it for fans and not offend folks who find it represents atrocious hateful values. It still reflects America, the good and the bad unfortunately in a very polarized instead educational way.. so move it to safe ground until both sides can see and understand and admit the full meaning which includes the truths from both sides. And sort out the truth from the BS and myths .

anyway, back to regular programing, btw, they call it programing for a reason.
 

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No, there is no greatness in slavery, nor anyone who held salves.
Bad is bad is bad.
Tear them all down.
 

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Discussion Starter #405
Some of you guys have a real black/white view, and some what limited view about the issues at play here
I spit out my tea, I was laughing so hard.

So Lee as bad, bad, sooper dooper bad, no redeeming features........but it is those who call out Ammo on her making up facts, intolerant attitude, her spreading of lies her absolute unwillingness to see history in context of time who are the black/white worldview guys.
 

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If the South wanted to collectively leave the United States of their own free will....then how exactly is that different from the war of independence, when the colonists also wanted to leave another union they were clearly not happy with?.The principle seems about the same to me.

The primary complaint the colonies had about the British government was that the colonies had no say in how they were governed. No representation in parliament, either house. That really is it, a person across an ocean made decisions that affected them and no way to provide feedback, they were expected to suck it up. In the case of the southern states they had almost equal representation in the Senate and were able to nullify efforts to reduce or eliminate slavery for 60 years before they tried to secede. That is the difference, "Taxation without Representation" was the rallying cry in the Revolutionary War. (The USA does have some territories without representation, for example Puerto Rico, but any time the Puerto Ricans want to they can vote to either become a state or become an independent country and each time they have the votes to start the referendum but not the votes to push through a change. And Puerto Ricans don't pay federal income tax.)
 

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I spit out my tea, I was laughing so hard.

So Lee as bad, bad, sooper dooper bad, no redeeming features........but it is those who call out Ammo on her making up facts, intolerant attitude, her spreading of lies her absolute unwillingness to see history in context of time who are the black/white worldview guys.
I disagree, in fact I think you have it dead backward, I do have a question about that context of history thing, Which? the historical context of when the subjects were alive ? or the historical context of when the statues were erected? , or the current historical context?

you seem to be preoccupied only with the first, I'm looking at all three , they were erected to intimidate and bolster white supremacy/ segregation, and currently folks think their time has passed and now they are just an embarrassment, which is equally distorting as hero worship and the Great man BS Big difference from being a Great General and a Great Man .. and a big part of that is which side you fought on in a moral and ethical sense.
So move them to private property
 

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so you think Washington and the colonists committed treason against the USA?

I could care less about treason of any other country's and most sane Americans probably agree with me , not that I care who agrees and doesn't

But seriously , honestly, you see no difference between treason against the USA and against another Country. especially one denying civil rights to folks .. seriously
you missed the point,

again, 2020 glasses viewing a 1776 world,
 

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Not agonist the USA, and that is what counts with me.. how you commit treason against my not matter to you.. you go fight for Washington's and Jefferson's hanging and I'll go fight for their medals for heroism.

seriously you think they are traitors? you British and a King's man by any chance or something?
again, not reading or comprehending the question,,,, ,
 

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It means the racism has gotten so blatant and frequent that even a Blind Person can see past the BS and Myths about slavery and treason by the confederacy .. and it is highly derogatory.. sort of the type of insult that is allowed when they can't say N***** lover. I prefer "abolitionist" myself. Replaces race traitor

Just look at how it is used DUH!
nope, wrong word,

Rooinek did a great job explaining it,

you did not, stop playing victim
 

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Can I just ask, a short interlude before you get back to the Civil War, what the heck is this “woke” word? It seems the latest thing to use against liberals, even beating out “snowflake”, but I have no idea what it’s supposed to mean.

Basically it means someone is especially sensitive to progressive issues. A term that is relatively new that I think applies is "Virtue Signalling".
 

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you missed the point,

again, 2020 glasses viewing a 1776 world,
I disagree, the country you are committing treason against matters , and if you win / wiling to die for your cause matters .. the biggest part of why this treason of the confederacy counts is after they surrendered remaining a citizen and keeping most of their land and homes , social status even political eligibility to hold office was more important to them than the lost ( I would call it "abandoned"), Cause. Then Ratified the new Constitutional Amendments to ensure full Civil Rights to the freed slaves , and promptly found every way to work around and circumvent them and restore a type of slavery by making it illegal to change employers without their current employer's permission and other stunts like arresting and convicting a the smallest of charges like vagrancy with out due process to excessive time and impossible to pay fines then leasing them out for a profit to farms logging camps mines steel mills whatever for what amounted to life long sentences since most died working where they were leased .. neoslavery if you will.

anyway you look at it, their commitment to the cause , and word of honor, wasn't worth a confederate dollar.

Perhaps a Patrick Henry quote"

“THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."
The people of the confederacy gets a fail they surrendered and picked up as US citizens about where they left off with whatever remained of their land and homes .

And they all lived happily everafter as US citizens
 

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A cursory read tells me he had 76 slaves, I wonder how hard did he work to free those particular slaves ?
Did he simply write elegant tomes as he worked them in his fields and homes ?
Maybe he even took other liberties with them, you know, raped them, as you have inferred was the custom of all slave owners ?
 

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your comments are getting more and more woke as you go, and insulting,,,,

typical for someone loosing an argument, insult instead of providing facts,

maybe you should take a moment and re read everything you posted,


you are becoming the typing definition of a woke democrat,


keep on showing us your true colors, and please, keep on painting some if not all of us with the wrong brush,
about that insulting part, how can saying you are supporting the very things you are wanting to memorialize and glorify, white supremacy and treason, be insulting when it's the very thing your heroes did?, and became famous for?

as far as winning or losing I will leave that to each reader, the ones that agree with me will probably think I'm "winning" and the ones that disagree will probably think I'm "losing"

so?? what's the prize?? when did the contest start? do we get breaks? how about free meals while we "contest"?
 

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let me clean that up a bit for cpw .. I do express my view point , after that cpw thinks I think it is the only correct one. o
Takes over a page to clean it up and expresses her view point ad nauseum.
 

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Takes over a page to clean it up and expresses her view point ad nauseum.
yeah, but did I get what you meant right?
 

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For the moderator an accurate answer, not one that is made up.

Ammo, once again making up “facts”. The term has been embraced by the left. Tee shirts, banners, placards all using the term and revelling in it. There are scores of blogs and on line organizations that use the term. Watch CNN and MSNBC, I do, and they all use this “highly derogatory” term.

It is no more “highly derogatory” than my saying that someone is “progressive”

Here is another to add to your growing list of made up ideas. Are you “relaying speculation” (ie spreading lies)?

Ammo, you lose all credibility when you make up “facts”!
so is your definition number 1 and mine number 2 or the other way around

we do that with words all the time, like lesbian or queer .. used to be derogatory, then they got "reclaimed" and are power and pride words .

must be frustrating to have an otherwise perfectly good slur get co-opted like that. and so fast.

just as some folks didn't know what it meant, I didn't know liberals "reclaimed" it

wait??? "It is no more “highly derogatory” than my saying that someone is “progressive'" you mean being a progressive is cool too now... well what are you using for "put downs"?

keep me updated on this please

I guess I'll have to take the complement then.. dang, and I am so much the victim, you spoiled it :)

I'm still using keen and groady to call things cool
 

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Discussion Starter #418 (Edited)
As I said Ammo you simply make up facts and, as demonstrated by your statement on Lee’s sexuality, spread lies. “Woke” was never “highly derogatory”. The term was, in contemporary times, likely first used by Erykah Badu, and not in a derogatory manner. Again facts vs your “facts”

You are however good for a laugh so please keep posting. It is fun to read your “facts” when trying to understand the mentality of people would erase our history. I also loved the black/white world comment, still gets a smile.
 

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I think this guy does a really good job of explaining what's wrong with Confederate Statues in America. One of the biggest points is that its incredibly weird to have statues of an enemy power's leaders put up in your own country. I don't think we did the same thing with Ho Chi Minh, Kim II Sung, or the German Kaiser even though these guys may have had some redeemable qualities according to someone from other periods in their lives. Because it's been so far back, people like to glamorize the Civil War but it was a conflict that caused the deaths of over 3% of the US population and permanently maimed millions more. It created immense misery for millions of people and its effects are still felt in a lot of the economically depressed areas of the South. These men took up arms against our country.

As a side note, I used to not think much of having the statues around but one day when I was living in Texas and my parents were visiting we went to the Texas state history museum. I was looking at an exhibit on slavery when a little black boy with his parents came up and started reading it with me. It hit me that I can in no way know what it would feel like to be in their position reading about how my country used to own my ancestors. That would be hard enough, but having to see the people who fought to keep that system in place celebrated on government property with statues is a whole nother level.
 
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