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Hard to understand the mentality that wants this....its as if they are trying to deny,and re-write,history.
 

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Absolutely stupid,

I was born in the now closed hospital at the east end of monument,

The stupidity if the folks in charge know no limits,
Destroying something that they should be capitalizing for tourist $$$$




Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

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I see both sides in the matter. Without diving again into the dirty swamp of what started the Civil War, we shouldn't be venerating someone on the wrong side of slavery. On the other hand, he was an honorable man in his own way. I'd think something a little more graceful would be a better response, like putting a statue of Martin Luther King standing right in front of him, looking right at him in defiance. Or maybe Frederick Douglas.
 

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I see both sides in the matter. Without diving again into the dirty swamp of what started the Civil War, we shouldn't be venerating someone on the wrong side of slavery. On the other hand, he was an honorable man in his own way. I'd think something a little more graceful would be a better response, like putting a statue of Martin Luther King standing right in front of him, looking right at him in defiance. Or maybe Frederick Douglas.
Before you say that, should probably read Lee's comments on the system. His main failing, if that is the right word, is he couldn't see a way to end it. When I look at our (USA) history and economics - neither do I. Not one that a significant part of the populace would find acceptable.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I see both sides in the matter. Without diving again into the dirty swamp of what started the Civil War, we shouldn't be venerating someone on the wrong side of slavery. On the other hand, he was an honorable man in his own way. I'd think something a little more graceful would be a better response, like putting a statue of Martin Luther King standing right in front of him, looking right at him in defiance. Or maybe Frederick Douglas.
The statue is over 120 years old and in this country, for good or bad, we venerate many men who were on the wrong side of slavery; Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Henry etc. One would hope that the educated man could place our forefathers in context and acknowledge that what may have been acceptable in their time is no longer but that does not justify destruction of their monuments.
The U.K. still has Nelson’s Column, as they should and he too was on the wrong side of slavery.
Tearing down our history is only evidence that the ill-educated and gutless are taking control. If we tear down everything that someone might be offended by we would have zero statues, zero public art....nothing.
We become little different from those who destroy the Buddhas of Batman or the city of Palmyra.
The statues and the Avenue should be left alone.
 

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"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
—Abraham Lincoln Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address closing statement.

The full should be read in its entirey. (IMO.) https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln2.asp
 

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Hard to understand the mentality that wants this....its as if they are trying to deny,and re-write,history.
My understanding is that many of these statues were build decades after the war with an intent to show that the confederacy was still "alive" in a way. If it was built around the time of the war, I think it should either stay, or be moved. I probably wouldn't keep it in front of government buildings though.

If it was built later on with racist intent, I think they aught to go into museums or something. I think those are good compromises to keep history but not destroy it. I'm completely 1000% against destroying them. In fact, if we applied those same standards to ancient Greece, the Roman Empire and so on, we'd have to tear down the entirety of the world, really.
 

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A similar proposition was made some years ago in respect of Cecil Rhodes at a College in Oxford, fortunately sense prevailed.
History is full of lumps and bumps. Do these people think of Greece as being the cradle of Democracy and ignore that it was based on a slave owning society, as was Rome, etc?
 

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The statue is over 120 years old and in this country, for good or bad, we venerate many men who were on the wrong side of slavery; Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Henry etc. One would hope that the educated man could place our forefathers in context and acknowledge that what may have been acceptable in their time is no longer but that does not justify destruction of their monuments.
The U.K. still has Nelson’s Column, as they should and he too was on the wrong side of slavery.
Tearing down our history is only evidence that the ill-educated and gutless are taking control. If we tear down everything that someone might be offended by we would have zero statues, zero public art....nothing.
We become little different from those who destroy the Buddhas of Batman or the city of Palmyra.
The statues and the Avenue should be left alone.
I agree with you. I can also see how an African-American who walks by that statue everyday could see it as a monument to slavery. Maybe Richmond should be looking for a compromise solution rather than "Keep it up/tear it down", like moving the statue to a neighborhood that wants it, a Confederate graveyard or my first proposal. With today's vitriol in political discourse I don't see how a middle ground could be achieved. It's sad all the way around.
 

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A similar proposition was made some years ago in respect of Cecil Rhodes at a College in Oxford, fortunately sense prevailed.
The Zulu tradition is that a commoner mustn't kill anyone of royal blood. Rhodes's grave, and I believe Jameson's nearby, is in a remote and unguarded spot, the View of the World, in the Matopo Hills. It was never desecrated, or at least nothing that wouldn't wash off, in the course of the Rhodesian war. Similarly although there was a good deal of terrorism (or whatever you call it) in South Africa before it changed, and since, there appears to have been a genuine aversion to the assassination of leading politicians. Just compare it with Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Rhodes was in some ways an unlikeable character, and an implacable foe. But one of his saving graces was that he always tried to spare the feelings of a defeated enemy. He got Barney Barnato into he Kimberley Club, its first Jewish member. I doubt if he would have done that for Lobengula if he had lived, but he would have done something.
 

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Not that much of an enthusiastic applause when the two speakers were done with their victory speech.

Vote soliciting on the part of those two and no balls to argue their point on the part of others. They will be after the Jefferson monument next.
 

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I agree with you. I can also see how an African-American who walks by that statue everyday could see it as a monument to slavery. Maybe Richmond should be looking for a compromise solution rather than "Keep it up/tear it down", like moving the statue to a neighborhood that wants it, a Confederate graveyard or my first proposal. With today's vitriol in political discourse I don't see how a middle ground could be achieved. It's sad all the way around.
You can put anything up on private property, the issue is public property and public funds , so why doesn't somebody just buy some land , equally visible equally prominent , or even better some place ( the Tourism Thing) someplace they can sell tickets to see it ..

Goes both ways .. some say it good to get tourist dollars .. an some don't want tourists like that messing up their town
 

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I agree with you. I can also see how an African-American who walks by that statue everyday could see it as a monument to slavery. Maybe Richmond should be looking for a compromise solution rather than "Keep it up/tear it down", like moving the statue to a neighborhood that wants it, a Confederate graveyard or my first proposal. With today's vitriol in political discourse I don't see how a middle ground could be achieved. It's sad all the way around.
Monument Ave starts at Stuart Circle, and goes west beyond the Arthur Ashe monument,

(as an Aside, the AA statue was added at the request of the locals who wanted a person of color on the avenue, and another recent statue was added, a few blocks down Arthur Ashe Boulevard (used to be just called The Boulevard) of a Black Man on a horse at the Va Museum of Fine Arts, which was considered a great thing and a sign of diversity etc,,,, however protesters broke into the UDC museum next door a week or so ago and tried to burn it up,)


Monument Ave was, at the time the monuments were installed, one of the more pricey areas to live in RVA, still is,

the East side is now on the edge of VCU, and a lot of the grand old homes have turned into apt's for the students,

here is what chaps me in the wrong places, and saying this as a life long resident of the metro area,


other towns, such as Charleston SC, have managed to tap into the potential $$$ available thru the tourist trade,

Richmond, instead of following Charleston's example, and using the history both as educational and as a tourist destination, has been too busy since the 60's if not before, shooting itself in the foot over most things historical, as in whoa is me, I am offended, my peoples were soo oppressed,
while they could have made a few changes, did a few things to promote the history and support the areas,,

we were the Capitol of the Confederacy, and have the White House of the Confederacy here, yet the City has allowed VCU to all but engulf it, (the MOC has been moved mostly to Appomattox)

we have Rev War history, some minor 1812 history, and Civil War history,
Petersburg (crater , and a major shipping hub) just south,
more than a handful of battles fought in the immediate area,
slave trade in Shokoe Bottom,
Poe lived here a bit, and his mother is buried here,
St John's,
one of if not the oldest Jewish Cemetery's,
Tredegar Iron Works,

etc
etc

yet the powers that be would rather spend a few dollars to half ass something historical vs spend some $$ and use it to capitalize the history and tourist industry, (and the resulting $$$ it brings in)
(looking at the pitiful stuff they did with Lumpkin's jail and the site the Slaves were auctioned at, )


the Cities leadership would rather spend time crying and being butt hurt instead of actually doing something constructive, and following the path Charleston and other cities (Savannah Ga comes to mind as well) to promote the history, and profit from it,



but, we are still considered in the South, so there is that stigma, and we are close to DC and Baltimore, so we get that mentality in our elected officials as well,
 

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Not that much of an enthusiastic applause when the two speakers were done with their victory speech.

Vote soliciting on the part of those two and no balls to argue their point on the part of others. They will be after the Jefferson monument next.
No Sir,

all will be removed,

the argument is that there is law on the books that says they cannot, until July 1, when the new laws from the past session go in effect,

the Lee statue is owned , iirc, by the state, the rest by the city,

all are on the Registry of Historic Places, but that will not matter




FWIW, Davis is buried not too far away in Hollywood Cemetery

https://www.hollywoodcemetery.org/visit/things-to-see
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
A similar proposition was made some years ago in respect of Cecil Rhodes at a College in Oxford, fortunately sense prevailed.
Alas, it did not prevail in South Africa with the vandalism and ultimate removal of his statue from the University of Cape Town. This despite the fact that much of the university sits on land which, as the university’s own web site says “ In 1928, the university was able to move the bulk of its facilities to the magnificent site at Groote Schuur on the slopes of Devil's Peak. It was here, on land bequeathed to the nation by Cecil John Rhodes as the site for a national university, that UCT celebrated its centenary the following year.”

...but then again one of the twits advocating for the removal of the statue in Oxford was a Rhodes Scholar! This demonstrating once again the absolute lack of basic decorum amongst those who know little of history and desperately hunt for a reason to be offended.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32236922
 

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"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
—Abraham Lincoln Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address closing statement.

The full should be read in its entirey. (IMO.) https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln2.asp
Might have actually gone that way if the traitors hadn't assassinated Him, and got Johnson, that very much wanted a punitive and "Hard Peace" brought it on themselves, probably hardened the attitudes of the folks they tried to assassinate that survived .. gave Southern "Gentlemen" a bad name and destroyed any charity or trust.

Surrendered and gave their parole and went right back to killing folks, and abandoned all Honor.

To say nothing of ratifying the 13th, 14th, 15th Amendments with no intention of enacting them in practice, so no Honor or even keeping their word there .. and they want respect? they didn't earn when alive, they were liars and traitors. Murdered their countrymen, violated their oaths , they earned shame and damnation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Thomas Jefferson.
 
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